Posted by pat/WA on 1/22/11 7:54pm
Msg #369673

self employment tax

How do you itemize your self-employment deduction. Is it $10 per signature or $10 per notarization.
Does that make sense. Is it $10 per signature or $10 each time you use your notary seal?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/22/11 7:55pm
Msg #369674

How are your notary fees determined?

$10/signature or $10/notarization? That's your answer.

Reply by Frenchie/TN on 1/22/11 8:19pm
Msg #369676

Re: How are your notary fees determined?

It is your notarization. Many times you sign documents that are not notarized, such as the ID certificate. Don't count these.

Reply by pat/WA on 1/22/11 8:50pm
Msg #369679

Re: How are your notary fees determined?

Right. but, sometimes you notarize a document that has two signatures and one notary seal

Reply by bob/IA on 1/22/11 9:07pm
Msg #369682

Re: How are your notary fees determined?

On general notary work I charge per signature, thus when figuring SE tax I figure loan signing work per notarized signature. You can not count signatures on documents that are not notarized.

Reply by jba/fl on 1/22/11 9:09pm
Msg #369683

What does WA mandate as to fees? Your answer.

For example, in FL - $10 per seal, in CA $10 per signature. You have to know what WA allows.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 1/22/11 9:38pm
Msg #369684

Re: And how many years have you been doing this now? n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 1/22/11 10:37pm
Msg #369686

LOL! n/m

Reply by pat/WA on 1/23/11 12:11am
Msg #369694

Re: And how many years have you been doing this now?

many years and my CPA was not aware of this deduction until this year

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 1/23/11 12:16am
Msg #369695

Re: And how many years have you been doing this now?

The point that she is making is that you have been doing this for many years and it appears that you don't even know how much to charge (per your state's statutes) for a single notarization.

Reply by pat/WA on 1/23/11 1:28am
Msg #369699

Re: And how many years have you been doing this now?

That is not the question!!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/23/11 2:39am
Msg #369704

Re: And how many years have you been doing this now?

Yes it is. You can only claim as an exemption the actual amount that you charge - which is determined by your state law - unless you're charging less than is allowed.

For example, if your state allows you to charge $10 per signature and you have 14 signatures notarized, you can't exempt yourself $140 if you were only paid $125 for the entire assignment. Conversely, if your state only allows you to charge $5 per notarization and there were only 5, you can only exempt $25 of the fee you received. On the rest, you owe both income tax (minus whatever deductions you have, of course) and self-employment tax.

This has been discussed on this board virtually every year, so there should be tons available under the search key.

Reply by SharonMN on 1/24/11 9:21am
Msg #369825

Re: And how many years have you been doing this now?

I called my state (MN SOS) to clarify whether it was per signature or per stamp (it's not clear in the laws) and they referred me to the NNA!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/24/11 12:26pm
Msg #369859

Sharon...here you go..MN Statutes Chapter 357

http://www.nationalnotary.org/userimages/minnesota.pdf

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/24/11 12:28pm
Msg #369861

Re: Sharon...here you go....ugh..too quick

Doesn't look like you can charge much more than $1.00 for *anything*...jeez...

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/23/11 12:59am
Msg #369696

It's not a deduction...

It's an exemption from Self-employment tax that you may choose to take if you wish. I've talked about it before, but taking the exemption isn't always a good idea. It can have some serious implications if you don't know what you're doing.

Exemptions and deductions are distinctly different things.

Reply by pat/WA on 1/23/11 1:26am
Msg #369698

Re: It's not a deduction...

I was aware of the stipulation regarding the notary fee that was allowed by the state, Neither my accountant nor I were aware that it could be taken as an exemption from the self employment tax,.

Reply by Doris_CO on 1/23/11 2:13am
Msg #369702

Re: It's not a deduction...

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040sse.pdf See page 4, "Income & Losses not included in net earnings from Self-Employment". You can only deduct the fee for the notarization allowed by your state. You question was answered in the string that starts with you question yesterday. See Msg #369519 and all the other comments.

Reply by Doris_CO on 1/23/11 2:16am
Msg #369703

Re: It's not a deduction...

It should be "your" not "you" both times.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 1/23/11 10:11am
Msg #369721

Re: Geez Louise

Don't try to put this blame off onto your accountant!!! This is Notary 101. You are the Notary and it is your responsibility to K-N-O-W Washington law and if Washington SOS allows you to charge per signature or per seal, and the amount you are allowed to charge.

This isn't your first rodeo and you've been performing loan signings and notary work for a number of years -- and you STILL don't know what you are allowed to charge for notarizations. Don't you dare come in here and expect people to look up Washington law for you.

Reply by Dave_CA on 1/23/11 10:19am
Msg #369722

Re: Geez Louise

That was NOT the Question. She knows what she can charge but was asking about the exemption from SE tax on her Notary income & yes a good tax accountant should be aware of this.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/23/11 10:25am
Msg #369723

Re: Geez Louise....Dave

Read the first 4 threads again - yes she did ask.

Reply by Dave_CA on 1/23/11 10:28am
Msg #369725

Re: Geez Louise....Dave

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree as I believe the question was
"How do you itemize your self-employment deduction."

Reply by Philip Johnson on 1/23/11 11:37am
Msg #369731

Rules in WA? We don't need no stinking rules here.

Just in case here is the latest from Olympia:

WAC 308-30-020
Agency filings affecting this section
What fees may a notary public charge?
(1) The maximum fees a notary may charge for notarial acts are:


NOTARIAL ACT FEE
Witnessing or attesting a signature $10.00
Taking acknowledgement or verification upon oath or affirmation $10.00
Certifying or attesting a copy $10.00
Receiving or noting a protest of a negotiable instrument $10.00
Being present at demand, tender, or deposit, and noting the same $10.00
Administering an oath or affirmation $10.00
Certifying that an event has occurred or an act has been performed $10.00

(2) A notary public need not charge for notarial acts. A notary who chooses to charge for notarial acts shall conspicuously display in their place of business, or present to each customer outside their business, an English-language schedule of fees for notarial acts. No part of the displayed notarial fee schedule may be printed in smaller than 10-point type.

(3) A notary may charge actual costs of copying any instrument or record.

(4) A notary may charge a travel fee when traveling to perform a notarial act if:

(a) The notary and the person requesting the notarial act agree upon the travel fee in advance of the travel; and

(b) The notary explains to the person requesting the notarial act that the travel fee is in addition to the notarial fee in subsection (1) of this section and is not required by law.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 1/23/11 12:11pm
Msg #369735

Re:Sad that as many years as Pat's been doing this,

she couldn't do her own legwork.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 1/24/11 8:17am
Msg #369812

Man, I Wish our Notary Laws Here in MO...

...could be revised to emulate the State of WA in the fee area. $2.00 per signature here.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 1/23/11 12:14pm
Msg #369736

Re:According to her post, no she doesn't know what to charge

Pat's own words cut and copied below:
**Is it $10 per signature or $10 per notarization.
Does that make sense. Is it $10 per signature or $10 each time you use your notary seal?**

Reply by HisHughness on 1/23/11 1:04pm
Msg #369747

Re: Re:According to her post, no she doesn't know what to charge

***Does that make sense. Is it $10 per signature or $10 each time you use your notary seal?

Makes perfect sense to me. Most of the time, you notarize a document signed by multiple signers, it requires only one notariization, i.e., one use of the seal.

And as to the original question, that, too, makes sense to me. She wanted to know, on a deed for example, whether the exemption applied to each signature on the deed, or to the single notarization that would normally be required. I did not see anywhere in her question that she did not know what she is permitted to charge for a notarization.

And I certainly didn't see the need for the sharpness in the replies.

Reply by Cari on 1/23/11 1:11pm
Msg #369749

she is NOT asking what to charge....you failed to quote the

rest of her question....

She first asked, "How do you itemize your self-employment deduction"....

....meaning is it itemized per how many times you sign your notary signature or use your stamp/seal....

At least that's how I interpreted her question...

Reply by Cari on 1/23/11 1:11pm
Msg #369750

my post directed toward Carolyn...as I agree with Hugh... n/m

Reply by kathy/ca on 1/23/11 1:27pm
Msg #369754

Right on Hugh & Cari, I cant stand how rude so many can be! n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 1/23/11 11:37pm
Msg #369803

I'm going to stand on the other side - if you are new here

and you last 2 are new, comparitively, you may fail to grasp what many of us who have been here for quite some time: this is the same question, or set of questions, that is asked repeatedly, with maybe (I said, maybe) one or two words rearranged in the asking.

As for some of the questions that you ask or answers given in response, there are eye rolls as to your inaccuracies.

And Hugh - in WA (Philip will correct me if I got this wrong) it is $10 per signature, which means number of signers, not number of notaries. So if one person signs, one notary signs and the cost is $10. If 4 people sign, one notary signs, and the cost is $40. (Like CA) If it were per stamp, it would be $10.00 for every time that stamp hits the paper. (Like FL) In which case, there is one who used to post here who would have everyone sign and then would issue an ack or jurat, one per signer, so that she could still get her $40 in the case of 4 signers.

Reply by HisHughness on 1/24/11 12:06am
Msg #369807

Re: I'm going to stand on the other side - if you are new here

Your explanation, it seems to me, Julie, makes the poster's question even more relevant. What she is permitted to charge under state law may be quite different from what she is entitled to exempt under federal law. In fact, your explanation casts a lot of light on why she would ask the question in the first place.

Thanks for the clarification.

Reply by jba/fl on 1/24/11 12:19am
Msg #369808

Re: I'm going to stand on the other side - if you are new here

How so Hugh?

Reply by HisHughness on 1/24/11 2:17am
Msg #369809

Re: I'm going to stand on the other side - if you are new here

She asked how the IRS treats the notary exemption on SS taxes: Does IRS permit exemptions by signature, or is it only by seal? In Texas, as I understand the law, that would not be an issue: You notarize once for a document with six signatures, you get to charge for one notarization. Apparently, based on your information, you notarize once in Washington for a document with six signatures, you get to charge six fees. Big difference on what qualifies for an exemption: $10 vs $60.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 1/24/11 3:16am
Msg #369810

Let's try this again...

The IRS permits the exemption by what a notary is permitted to charge according to their state's statutes. In this case, the notary is allowed to charge by signature. There are 6 signers. The notary charges $60 and that is what is exempt. If there is only one signature, the notary charges $10 and that is what is exempt. In WA, it doesn't matter how many stamps there are. On the other hand, if it is package of loan docs, and there are 14 signatures and the notary is being paid only $125, the notary cannot exempt $140 because they cannot exempt more than they are being paid.

Reply by jba/fl on 1/24/11 7:16am
Msg #369811

I failed to emphasize that - you are correct along with

others who also pointed that out.

Sometimes late at night one just cannot remember everything or just doesn't care to rewrite a whole section of the standard operating manual.

@Hugh: yes, makes a huge difference. That is why right from the beginning of this thread LindaH asked the question: what can one charge in WA and is it per signature or per stamp.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 1/24/11 8:52am
Msg #369818

Re: I failed to emphasize that - you are correct along with

I often get caught in the semantics myself.

Reply by HisHughness on 1/24/11 9:01am
Msg #369822

Re: I failed to emphasize that - you are correct along with

***I often get caught in the semantics myself.***

Never been caught in the semantics. Got caught in the rain a couple of times, and way more than once been caught in traffic. The worst, though, was being caught in the wrong guy's house when he wasn't home but his girlfriend was. Being caught in the semantics surely can't be any worse than that.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 1/24/11 3:22pm
Msg #369908

Re: I'm going to stand on the other side - if you are new here

My point is that it is the duty and responsibility of the notary to know what their own state's SOS allows, and whether it is per stamp or signature. And further, if your CPA or accountant does not stay abreast of constantly changing tax law, then it's time to find a new CPA or accountant.

Reply by jba/fl on 1/24/11 3:36pm
Msg #369910

Hear, hear! So true. n/m