Posted by NJDiva on 7/16/11 6:47pm
Msg #389875

NotaryNow.com and SignNow.com

Not sure how I came across it, but it looks like NotaryNow is one and the same as SignNow.com.

Check out their site; signnow.com

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/16/11 7:41pm
Msg #389877

Do who is search see if same owner n/m

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/16/11 7:49pm
Msg #389878

per go daddy the same person owns both n/m

Reply by NJDiva on 7/16/11 8:02pm
Msg #389879

I reported as scam on FB n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/16/11 8:18pm
Msg #389881

Re: NotaryNow.com and SignNow.com - RipOff Report for both!!

May be a good idea for Notary Rotary posters from each state to post something on RipOff Report - include in their post the link to their state's SOS that condemns web cam notarization. The general public may not know about notary directories but may be familiar with ROR. Since ROR posts are kept forever - no worries about SignNow or NotaryNow getting the site to delete them.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/16/11 8:28pm
Msg #389882

Re: NotaryNow.com and SignNow.com - RipOff Report for both!!

Excellent idea! Someone was just saying the othr day that these reports are there forever and don't get edited out....great solution.

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/16/11 9:05pm
Msg #389884

Re: NotaryNow.com and SignNow.com - RipOff Report for both!!

I just registered with ROR and filed a report, using the title: NotaryNow.com web cam/video notarizations ILLEGAL in California. I included this link: http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/customer-alert.htm....saying "Don't be an identity theft, general fraud, real estate fraud, and elder abuse victim!

It's about four paragraphs long. The post should be up and online in a few hours, I guess it has to be reviewed by ROR staff before it's put on the site. I hope other CA Notaries Public post a report because each of us has a different perspective and collectively, these different perspectives will be a strong voice and tip the scales in favor of NOT utilizing NotaryNow's service.

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/16/11 9:07pm
Msg #389885

Oops, this link

http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/customer-alert.htm

Reply by NJDiva on 7/16/11 9:32pm
Msg #389887

Just read your article!! AWESOME Lisa! n/m

Reply by NJDiva on 7/16/11 9:31pm
Msg #389886

JUST AN FYI everyone...They are located in CA, not NJ n/m

Reply by NJDiva on 7/16/11 9:45pm
Msg #389890

Their address on Signnow.com is:

2901 W Coast Hwy., Suite 320, Newport Beach, CA 92663

I thought they were from NJ too, but someone had mentioned to me when I posted a week or so ago that they're located in Newport Beach. Apparently, they got a NJ Notary to notarize a doc for them.

It's against the law here in NJ too, just so everyone knows.

I think someone from the Newport Beach area should go call them out...lol...I'll tell ya what, I would if I lived there...but then we tend to be a little bit more "assertive" here in NJ!!! lmao I'm from the area where the Soprano's was created. As a matter of fact, "Bada Bing" (that's not the real name of the "establishment", but it IS a real establishment of the same "business") is just a few miles from me.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/16/11 9:51pm
Msg #389892

Wonder what ever happened to that NJ notary

who notarized that doc for our FL friend who gave it a test run...

And from reading various forums, I think there were several NJ notaries who were offering this service....wonder if they ever got BUSTED!

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/16/11 10:05pm
Msg #389895

Re: Wonder what ever happened to that NJ notary

Not one thing, because as of now it's ok per the state unless a ruling is issued.

Reply by NJDiva on 7/16/11 10:23pm
Msg #389897

HUH???? No it's not ok per the state! n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/17/11 7:09am
Msg #389925

You can't be serious Mike...when did NJ waive

personal appearance...I don't believe they have....

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/16/11 10:01pm
Msg #389893

Can you show me the ruling? No opinion has been issued n/m

Reply by Michael Edmonds on 7/16/11 10:02pm
Msg #389894

No opinion for NJ as of today. Again its only your opinion n/m

Reply by NJDiva on 7/16/11 10:29pm
Msg #389898

The law still clearly says "personal appearance"

if I'm not mistaken. I'd like to know where the information came from that there are a lot of notaries in NJ doing it?

Reply by Michael Edmonds on 7/16/11 10:44pm
Msg #389899

please show me where appear is defined

It does not state by in person or video. So either way per the hand book is valid.

http://www.salemcountyclerk.org/files/24_NEWJERSEYNOTARYPUBLICMANUAL.pdf

Reply by Susan Fischer on 7/17/11 2:19am
Msg #389921

Personally Appeared is a legal term of art. It means

physicality in the actual, sensory; a live human in one's immediate presence.

If you recall, there were two Senators who thought they could take the Oath of Office over the TeeVee machine. Of course, that didn't fly, in person means in person, not in pixels or whatever they are.

"Personal" is the operative word because it distinguishes "appear[in all its forms] from the uncertainty of its myriad meanings and implications. Here, it specifically and absolutely means a live person showed up and in my presence, did such and such.

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/17/11 10:25am
Msg #389931

Re: Personally is not in NJ handbook-APPEAR IN Front

That could have many meanings right now until defined.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 7/17/11 1:33pm
Msg #389937

Personally is a pretty important word here, and if it was

intentionally omitted to eliminate the physicality that has been a cornerstone of Notarial acts since the advent of the office centuries ago?

Holy cow.

Sure glad my state didn't do that.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/17/11 7:10am
Msg #389926

I didn't say a lot of notaries...I said several

and it comes from reading their posts on various forums...

Reply by NJDiva on 7/16/11 10:59pm
Msg #389900

Would you happen to know any of those Notaries?

I'm starting to wonder why you keep insisting that it's okay in NJ? It sounds like justification Michael.

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/16/11 11:01pm
Msg #389901

Nope, you need to be sure of facts before saying

Things on the internet, could get sued. So always be sure of facts. Internet can bite back.

Reply by NJDiva on 7/16/11 11:03pm
Msg #389903

I put on the internet what was on the NJNA site... n/m

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/16/11 11:08pm
Msg #389906

again opinion from a small group of people NOT Fact n/m

Reply by NJDiva on 7/16/11 11:02pm
Msg #389902

And when did it become legal to swear to

someone's identity on a COPY?

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/16/11 11:07pm
Msg #389904

Until NJ rules against video it's ok in NJ FACT n/m

Reply by NJDiva on 7/16/11 11:16pm
Msg #389908

How is that FACT? n/m

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/16/11 11:19pm
Msg #389909

Video being performed and nothing stopping it

Fact -yes

Reply by NJDiva on 7/16/11 11:23pm
Msg #389910

And the original ID is being checked how?

We don't swear to identity on copies, do we?

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/16/11 11:25pm
Msg #389911

ID can be shown on Video n/m

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/16/11 11:26pm
Msg #389912

Again till law is changed.. its ok so far in NJ n/m

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/16/11 11:28pm
Msg #389913

When NJ Notary law is changed shout it to the world n/m

Reply by NJDiva on 7/16/11 11:29pm
Msg #389914

That is NOT the original!!!!!

Come on Michael! That's a bunch of crap and you KNOW it!!! It sounds like pure justification for doing something you KNOW isn't ethical.

Let's just take advantage, make the money while we can because "Well, they didn't tell us we couldn't?" ?????? CRAP, CRAP, CRAP!!!

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/16/11 11:30pm
Msg #389915

Welcome to NJ n/m

Reply by NJDiva on 7/16/11 11:33pm
Msg #389916

That's not NJ!!! That's PEOPLE's ethics!!!

Speak for yourself!!!

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/16/11 11:40pm
Msg #389917

At this point

It does not matter how we feel, only a couple ways things will change. We can kick scream hold our breath it does not change current conditions and if you bad mouth a company and don't have all the facts you can be held liable.

You live in NJ and know no one does anything in govt unless there is something for them. If you believe other I have a bridge for sale.

1. Court Case rules againts
2. AG rules againts WEB Cams
3. Bill passed update laws

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/17/11 9:09am
Msg #389928

I have a question Mike

How do they sign your journal since the signer's signature is a requirement of your journal entry? According to your manual, in part...

Requirements for Taking an Acknowledgment
The Notary should:
ĦEnsure that the signer appears before him/her and presents at least one form of identification (ID) that provides a physical description of the signer-- e.g., driver's license.

ĦMake a journal entry. The journal entry provides evidence and an audit trail thereby protecting both the Notary and the general public. Required information includes: 1) date and time of notary act, 2) type of act (i.e., acknowledgment), 3) title of document, 4) date document was signed, 5) signature; printed name and address of each signer, and if applicable, each witness, and 6) form of ID -- e.g. identification document, personal knowledge, or credible witness.

Requirements for a Jurat

The Notary should perform the following procedures:
ĦEnsure that the signer appears before him/her, shows at least one form of ID that provides a physical description of the signer-e.g., driver's license, AND signs the document in his/her presence.

ĦMake a journal entry. The journal entry provides evidence and an audit trail thereby protecting both the Notary and general public. Required information includes: 1) date and time of notary act; 2) type of act (i.e., jurat); 3) title of document; 4) date document was signed; 5) signature, printed name and address of each signer and, if applicable, each witness; and 6) form of ID -- e.g., identification document, personal knowledge, or credit witness. "


It's MHO that if this form of notarization were allowed in NJ your manual would be more specific in laying out the procedure and requirements for accomplishing it.

I'd beware where I tread with this - thankfully, Florida is clear....both in requiring personal appearance and defining that appearance = physical presence.

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/17/11 10:12am
Msg #389930

This just my opinion

Because NJ does not require a notary to keep a journal the above caption from the handbook is called into question.

This whole issue is something that needs an answer one way or another. If there is a loophole someone will expose it for everything they can, Notary Now was the first- do I think they are making a lot of money, no.

Come July 2012 VA will get flooded and will see how courts rule on ID cases.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/17/11 11:26am
Msg #389936

See, that's really confusing to me..

Almost every act that a notary public is authorized to do in NJ REQUIRES that the notary make a journal entry - jurats, acknowledgements, protests - but it's not specifically stated that a journal is required. I find that odd.

However, that being said, if the "play-by-play" provided by my manual for each act specifically states "Make a journal entry" and goes on to outline those elements that are required to be included in the journal entry , as a reasonable and prudent person I'd conclude "Gee, I must need to keep a journal"...because IMO failure to keep a journal record for those acks, jurats and protests is a violation of notary law.

JMHO

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/17/11 11:46pm
Msg #389973

Re: ID can be shown on Video

ID shown on video cannot be *examined* for tampering.

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/16/11 11:07pm
Msg #389905

I'll post an update to their location on ROR. n/m

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/16/11 11:15pm
Msg #389907

NJNA web page - again offer opinion not fact

Appear is not defined in NJ Notary book and as you can see they want to spin (personally appear)

the page is just there opinion and wanting to change the law.

http://www.newjerseynotaryassociation.org/webcam_notary.html

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/16/11 11:58pm
Msg #389918

To Whom are you replying to, ME/NJ ?

If your post is meant for me - my post on ROR spoke of NotaryNow.com services being illegal in CA only and "other" states - never mentioned what is or is not legal in other states. The title referenced only the company's location - which I posted an update that stated they are located in CA, not NJ.

If your post was meant for someone else, then ignore this post.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 7/17/11 10:41am
Msg #389932

Any state must accept a document notarized in another state

whether the statues are the same or not. Therefore I don't understand your basis for writing a ripoff report. Furthermore, most ripoff reports are so bogus that only the most gullible take these reports at face value. A CA document notarized in NJ would still have to be accepted in CA.
SignNow and NotaryNow can get in there and file a rebuttal.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 7/17/11 10:51am
Msg #389933

Any state must accept a document notarized in another state

whether the statutes are the same or not. Therefore I don't understand your basis for writing a ripoff report. Furthermore, most ripoff reports are so bogus that only the most gullible take these reports at face value. A CA document notarized in NJ would still have to be accepted in CA.
SignNow and NotaryNow can get in there and file a rebuttal.

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/17/11 4:09pm
Msg #389948

Re: Any state must accept a document notarized in another state

<<<Therefore I don't understand your basis for writing a ripoff report.>>>

Shoshanna,

What is unclear about webcam notarizings opening the floodgates to identity theft, general and real estate fraud, and elder abuse?
What is unclear about someone photo shopping an ID, then uploading THAT as their ID?
What is unclear about someone wearing disguises to impersonate someone else, then uploading THAT as their ID for the purposes of defrauding?
What is unclear about someone off camera threatening someone ON camera to force them to sign?
What is unclear about someone impersonating grandma - who's bedridden or in a nursing home - to wipe out her assets/finances because they want their inheritance NOW?

Identity theft and the others are already bad enough - they will become worse. Dare webcam notarizations be the vehicle that helps those evils increase exponentially?

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 7/17/11 4:39pm
Msg #389949

But it's still legally acceptable.....

and not necessarily a ripoff. Believe most of what you enumerate in your post will still be going on. Will it become worse, we don't know for sure. It's like saying if Congress doesn't raise the debt ceiling there will be economic armegeddon!

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/17/11 9:15pm
Msg #389966

Re: But it's still legally acceptable.....

Whether one state must accept another's notarization is IMHO a non-issue to this discussion. When someone intends to defraud another, they're in essence "ripping them off" and this is what webcam notarization will open the door to - increased widespread fraud.

The purpose of the Notary Public is to deter fraud - very difficult to do with webcam notarizations. In CA, it is illegal to use a translator - the Notary and the customer must communicate directly. How can this rule be followed if a person on video - who speaks no English is being told what to say in English by someone in the background, out of view of the Notary?

Wouldn't happen if the Notary is sitting next to the customer. The purpose of the Notary Public is to deter fraud - very difficult to do with webcam notarizations.

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/17/11 12:30am
Msg #389920

When a state's law is silent....

and the issue is of great magnitude, it's probably a good idea NOT to do something than TO do something. Even if the law does not prohibit you, it may not be a green light either. There is what is called the letter of the law (the written words) and the spirit of the law (the intent of those words). Courts do strongly consider of the intent of the law - what it is meant to accomplish.

The wording in many guides/handbooks say a person is to "appear before" the Notary. What is the INTENT of personal appearance? That the person is somehow *visible* in some way or that the person can be reached out and touched?

When a guide/handbook is silent on an issue, particularly on one that could change the entire purpose of the public office, I would opt NOT to do something until I was given the WRITTEN green light. The magnitude of THIS issue is too great to be so cavalier and say, "Well, since the guide/handbook doesn't say I can't, that automatically means I can." If I were NJ Notary, I would refuse to do webcam notarizations until the guide/handbook gave the written green light. JMHO

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/17/11 3:30am
Msg #389922

Re: When a state's law is silent....

Excellent advice, Lisa! BTW, I looked up the address you posted. There's obviously some pretty substantial funding behind this operation, as that location is right on Newport Bay in a *very* "chi-chi" commercial district. That's probably the at least close to the priciest area in Newport Beach, which is saying something!

The whole thing smells to me... I don't get out that way too often (and I try to avoid that area this time of year), but next time I do, I'll try to at least do a drive-by. Got me curious...

Reply by NJDiva on 7/18/11 12:51am
Msg #389976

Location...

"There's obviously some pretty substantial funding behind this operation, as that location is right on Newport Bay in a *very* "chi-chi" commercial district. That's probably the at least close to the priciest area in Newport Beach, which is saying something!"

But of course. Did you look at their Bio's? I think a couple of them used to work in the finance field. Hedge Funds in particular were mentioned! I was an Executive Assistant to a Hedge Fund Manager and I can assure you, common middle class people are not investing in them. They are for the rich. High risk, but very high return. Therefore, it's no surprise that they may have some "substantial funding behind this operation."

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/17/11 6:10am
Msg #389924

Michael's key point here is at the crux of this

Long ago when this first came up, I searched through NJ's statutes - they make it easy, searched "personal", "appear" and "notary" (separately). Yes, lots of boring reading BUT NJ law does not define "appear", nor does it state w/in the LAW that a person must "PERSONALLY appear"; rather, it says "must appear". The only place I could find that term "personally appear" (in the context of notarizations) is w/in the actual notarial certificate verbiage - yet the statutes were murky at best, as to the legally required elements of the cert.

You can't break a law that doesn't exist - this is Michael's point (I believe). Given the length of time this 'internet notary' issue has been going on (and I did find one site doing this way back in 1997), given the loud outcry about it to every SOS out there, given the noise being made against it by so many, in so many ways & so many places - the fact that this particular company appears to STILL be engaging in business says a lot, I think.

I also note - significantly so - that the NASS has been 'silent' (at least to the public). The topic cropped up in their list feed some time ago, once. Any replies/conversations that may have taken place were not ever shared on the list.

I've long thought that these guys WANT this taken before the court, and this was/is their chosen method of getting that to happen. It's almost the equivalent of jumping up and down, waving flags and shouting "PLEASE"!! Eventually? I don't get the nature of their motivation, but what would not surprise me is if it has something to do with VA's precedent-setting new law spelling out their virtual-appearance & ID requirements for e-notarizations.

It's certainly all very interesting (except the part about reading statutes!).

Reply by FGX/NJ on 7/17/11 1:46pm
Msg #389938

Re: Michael's key point here is at the crux of this


This is an email from the head of the NJ Notary Div. I received 7/15 regarding my complaint I filed in Jan 2011
The AG stated that a ruling had been made and was waiting for approval from a higher level before being published. they will not as of now say what the ruling is.

Jim:
"I am still waiting for the AG opinion. As I told you previously until I receive it, I cannot take a position either way."

PS I filed a Ripoff Report in Jan 2011 and it shows up right after their site if you google motarynow

Reply by MichiganAl on 7/17/11 7:10pm
Msg #389950

Here's where I disagree

Absent a definition of "personal appearance," I don't think we just make up a definition. I think we look elsewhere. Either we look to the Federal level, or we look at the most basic, common definition. Now without looking up Federal laws, if a court or a judge told me I must personally appear before them, they don't mean let's do a webcam or grab our iPhones and Facetime each other. I'm pretty sure that a subpoena to personally appear in traffic court, divorce court, Federal court, in front of Congress, or anywhere else means my butt should be physically there. So without a defintion in the NJ statute, I think a common sense definition that's applied everywhere else should prevail.

I think it's a travesty that NJ has so far been silent (so has Michigan but I don't think it's been an issue yet) because until they speak up, I guess silence is acceptance. Maybe they think the same thing you do; they think these guys are LOOKING for a court fight and they're worried about giving it to them.

Anyone in NJ thought about going to the press? In light of all the fraud we've seen in the mortgage industry, I bet the press wouldn't portray them in a very good light. And maybe that kind of publicity will encourage the state to act.

Reply by Notarysigner on 7/18/11 2:37am
Msg #389978

California as defined "personal appearance" for it's notarie

..this was post on the SOS Website 2/14/11

http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/customer-alert.htm

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/18/11 5:29am
Msg #389979

NJ does not use "personally" appear, JUST "appear"

If they did use "personally appear", that would make them on par with most other states and it would make this a whole other ballgame.

Reply by Notarysigner on 7/18/11 8:12am
Msg #389983

Maybe they believe in ghost! n/m

Reply by NJDiva on 7/18/11 8:22am
Msg #389984

I will say again...

How does one swear to a person's identity on a copy of an ID?

Is there anyone out there that would accept a copy of an ID as proof of identity?

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/18/11 9:07am
Msg #389986

Re: I will say again...

According to what this particular enterprise is claiming to do, the uploaded identification is being cross-referenced with other available identifying data - it does not appear, from what I can find written by them, that they are just taking an uploaded piece of ID and using that as proof alone. It appears, from their site's written policies, that they are using both public and non-public information to support or invalidate the identity as presented with whatever document(s) is/are uploaded by the client.

I'm just trouble-shooting this, I am not making any claims or determinations about what they are doing. I do think the trouble-shooting or fact-finding is an important aspect to thoroughly consider before stating anything that reads like a legal determination. It isn't (apparently) as cut/dried as some claim, if the NJ AG took 7 months to make their own determination - and as yet, is still not willing to release it.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/18/11 9:00am
Msg #389985

Alex's opinion mirrors mine.

He's got a great suggestion in that last paragraph.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/18/11 10:18am
Msg #389988

Absolutely does have great suggestion....someone move on it. n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/18/11 10:10am
Msg #389987

Re: Here's where I disagree

"they think these guys are LOOKING for a court fight "

And this court fight will come if this continues - when and how? When the person holding what they believe to be, by representations made to them, a validly notarized document - and they find out it's not so.

IMO this is no better than having a document notarized by someone who's not a notary.

Reply by Linda_in_MI on 7/18/11 6:51pm
Msg #390089

Michigan SOS has said NO WEBCAM

At least that's what I was told when this first came up and asked the SOS about it. I had other business in Lansing and stopped in at the office on Washington street. The gal behind the counter told me they were aware of webcam notarizations and NotaryNow; she also said that in Michigan personally appeared is a requirement that doesn't' happen with webcams. But you're right Alex, I don't think there has been any "official" ruling or position paper published or publicly issued.