Posted by FGX/NJ on 8/11/12 9:15am
Msg #430103
Inquiry to Virginia Notary Div
Sent today 8/11
Can you please advise if the claim of a drivers license is sufficient to meet the requirements of section (b) an antecedent in-person identity proofing process in accordance with the specifications of the Federal Bridge Certification Authority,
The link to the company NotaryNow is below.
http://notarynow.signnow.com/pricing/
We in NJ had problems with this company in 2010 claiming webcam notatizations were legal in NJ. After our AG barred them, they tried same thing in the Northern Mariana Islands until stopped by their AG.
They are located in California and evidently
have found a Va. Notary or Notaries to do these
notarizations.
I do not see how a scanned drivers license meets your requirements.
James H. Lissemore,Pres
Flexo-Notaries Inc
Flexo-Notaries.com
| Reply by Sandra Clark on 8/11/12 9:28am
Msg #430104
Can't wait to see their response if in fact they respond at all. Keep us posted.
| Reply by ToniK on 8/11/12 8:20pm
Msg #430156
Straight from the VA notary handbook:
Remote notarization requires a very high threshold for identity assurance. Not only MUST there
be a video and audio feed, the notary public will be REQUIRED to assure the identity of the
signer by one of the following three options:
1) Personal knowledge. This is already allowed under Virginia law. Simply put, if
the notary knows the signer, that will satisfy this requirement.
2) Reliance on prior in person
identity proofing by a third party such as an
employer, a law firm, or a bank. Otherwise known as antecedent proofing, this
security standard relies upon a prior trust relationship having been created
between the signer and a third party. This standard is gaining wide application in
electronic commerce.
3) The signer has a digital certificate that is authenticated either by (i) biometrics or
(ii) a Personal Identity Verification (PIV) or PIVI card issued in conformance with strict government standards from the National Institute of Standards and Technology. The use of PIV and PIVI cards is becoming more prevalent in the public and private sectors. This is as trustworthy and reliable a security standard as can be found currently. The federal government uses this standard in issuing
identifications to federal employees and government contractors as well for trusting the identity of emergency first responders.
| Reply by MikeC/TX on 8/11/12 9:25pm
Msg #430160
None of which includes the faxed copy of a DL that NotaryNow is touting as proof of identity...
What's not clear is whether KBA using Experian meets the test of "antecedent proofing". I'm thinking it doesn't, but questions like that usually have to be settled in court.
Meanwhile, these guys will continue to operate their business until some VA authority tells them otherwise. There are blatant lies on their website, not the least of which is that all 50 states plus the federal government have passed laws to allow electronic notarization (which, even if true, would be very different than the snake oil they're selling).
Any VA notary who buys into this scheme is risking their commission and possibly more.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/13/12 4:28am
Msg #430253
It's my understanding that an electronic notarization isn't the same thing as a web-cam notarization, and in fact, may be legal in all states. I believe that an electronic notarization would just mean that the parties were dealing with an electronic document and the notarization was administered electronically (and the journal maintained that way, too, if applicable.) This in no way would negate the requirement for the signer to personally appear. Again, that's just my understanding and I could be wrong.
Who knows if these guys are intentionally blurring the edges (my guess) or if they're just confused. I'm betting they're hoping that the public is confused and will fall for this deception. Pretty pathetic either way.
| Reply by VT_Syrup on 8/12/12 8:49am
Msg #430176
The VA notary handbook advice pointed out by ToniK says:
2) Reliance on prior in person
identity proofing by a third party such as an
employer, a law firm, or a bank. Otherwise known as antecedent proofing, this
security standard relies upon a prior trust relationship having been created
between the signer and a third party. This standard is gaining wide application in
electronic commerce.
This is next to useless as advice to the notary. Anyone who hasn't been living under a rock has undergone identity by an employer, law firm, a bank, or similar organization. So what? That isn't the issue. The issues are:
1. How can a notary know that a person underwent antecedent identity proofing. These firms don't exactly provide trustworthy databases of who they have proofed.
2. Even if a notary has a reliable document saying that John Doe was proofed by Douie, Cheatem, & How, how can the notary be sure the person on the other end of the video link is the same person who was proofed.
This antecedent proofing mechanism seems to be mainly useful in cases where the notary is personally acquainted with the person doing the proofing. I could imagine a bank manager, who the notary knows, gets on a video link with the notary and introduces Mr. Jones. The notary records the video. Later, Mr. Jones needs a notarization so the notary reviews the video of the introduction to be sure it's Mr. Jones.
| Reply by ToniK on 8/12/12 10:24am
Msg #430178
And I'll add to this by referring to the VA notary handbook again...as Va notaries we have an additional power called verification of fact.
The Commonwealth of Virginia is the first state in the country to authorize the verification of
fact as a notarial power. This involves a notary directly accessing public or vital records to
confirm or validate a signer’s identity credentials or to confirm facts about an individual’s
identity or authorization. A notary may also access public records to confirm facts about such
matters as corporate status, date of birth,, or date of marriage.
Also Page 7 of our handbook (direct from the VA website) states: Personal appearance is required for all electronic notary acts. At this time, video conferencing, as a remote notary, is not available.
Page 9 states: Effective July 1, 2012, the Commonwealth of Virginia will be the first state to authorize a principal signer to be in a remote location and have a document notarized electronically. Remote electronic notarization incorporates strict federal standards for determining the identity of the
signer and requires the notary to keep a record of the video conference for each notarial act,
which is not required in paper notarizations. Accordingly, protections against fraud with this
method are much stronger than that afforded by the current paper process. It is important to
remember that the Commonwealth of Virginia already use video conferencing in courts of law,
the standards for which this law expressly crossreferences.
If you have ever been in a court room where the inmate may be located in another setting from the actual courtroom, they have actual verifiers at both location and its an inhouse closed circuit set up or intraconnected set up. So in this case I would assume for VA notaries, we would have verified the information/identity of the signer by contacting employer or using lexisnexis or such public databases then while video conferencing we have the signer state personal verifiable information we obtained through our fact finding investigation and possible another party is present during the video conferencing to witness and state they verify the signer...ie spouse, relative etc. As for the video conferencing equipment, we would have to do research on a software program that has encryption, digitial certificate and authentication. For example, I did an interview with a defense contractor for a Federal govt contract using skype.
From what I read in the handbook, Va e-notary laws arent meant to use it for basic purposes such as scan and email the id's to the notary and just show up on the webcam. And since they are referencing Federal govt regulations and their court use of video conferencing, we as notaries need to have the similar type of set up.
I've worked in the Federal Govt and we used video conferencing on secured channels. That is to prevent unauthorized access and use of the systems. Most corporations have those as well. Now the average joe and notary wont have that. So from my understanding of the law, my experience with VC/AC what notarynow is attempting to do wont be valid notarial act in Va.
In conclusion, with VA new drivers license the way its made should cut down on fraud as we have several different features on our drivers license and it would take a sophisticated counterfeiter to replicate.
http://www.idmanagement.gov/fpkipa/documents/FBCA_Supplementary_Antecedent.pdf
| Reply by VT_Syrup on 8/12/12 12:25pm
Msg #430182
ToniK mentiones "using lexisnexis or such public databases then while video conferencing we have the signer state personal verifiable information we obtained through our fact finding investigation". LexisNexis does a lot of different stuff. It would appear to me that someone trying to perform a remote notarization using the antecedent in-person ID would, as one mandatory condition, would have to find some statement in the X Corp. reliable database, that an authorized representative of X Corp. met in person with the would-be signer and examined the would-be signer's identity documents. If the VA notary finds out information such as the signer had a credit card with Joe's Department Store in 1963 or had a mortgage with 3rd National Bank of Podunk in 1987, the notary then asks questions about these bits of old information and get's correct responses, that does not meet the requirement. The requirement is that a reliable third party met in person with the would-be signer and proved the would-be signer's identity. What LexisNexis product offers that proof? Is there ANY public database that offers that proof? Not that I've heard of.
| Reply by MikeC/TX on 8/12/12 11:13pm
Msg #430238
"2) Reliance on prior in person identity proofing by a third party"
OK, that eliminates KBA solutions such as Experian (touted by Notary Now), because there is no "prior in person identity proofing" involved in what they do. They may be able to identify you for their purposes based on your previous credit history, but unless they've met with you face to face, it fails the requirements of VA law.
The people pushing this remote notary thing are seriously misrepresenting what the VA law says. The ID requirements are so strict that it was clealry not intended for general notary work. With any luck, the VA authorities will shut them down before they do any serious damage.
| Reply by ToniK on 8/12/12 11:23pm
Msg #430239
Thank you, someone who gets it....
| Reply by BrendaTx on 8/12/12 11:58pm
Msg #430243
Toni - you've been most helpful.
Thank you.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 8/13/12 12:04am
Msg #430244
What Texas SoS said...
Don't want to start another thread on this because I seemed like I am obsessed with this already.
However, I did get a reply from the SoS. In short, the legal counsel for the Tx SoS said that a court would have to decide if notarizations originating from a Virginia electronic notary using audio/video appearance. If the Texas legal folks aren't sure that this type of notarization would be accepted nationwide, I don't know how 'that site' can say that it would be.
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