Posted by SE12ER on 8/9/12 12:41am
Msg #429831

The Note signature Line has the word "Seal"

This is my first signing. One the Note where the borrower signs has the word "seal" on the signature line. And before the signature line it reads "Witness the hand(s) and seal(s) of the undersigned." It is unclear to me whether I need to put my notary seal on this. My gut feeling tells me no but I just want to double check. Any feedback would much appreciated.

Reply by MaggieMae_CA on 8/9/12 12:45am
Msg #429832

You're gut feeling is correct, you do not put your notary stamp there. When borrowers ask me about putting my seal next to their signature on a signature line with the word "Seal" I tell them that "seal" in that instance is just a pretty legal word for signature.

When I was knee high to a grasshopper and was working for the first lawfirm I worked in that's the way my boss defined it to me.

Reply by SE12ER on 8/9/12 12:47am
Msg #429833

Thanks Maggie :) n/m

Reply by Karla/OR on 8/9/12 2:18am
Msg #429838

<<When borrowers ask me about putting my seal next to their signature on a signature line with the word "Seal" I tell them that "seal" in that instance is just a pretty legal word for signature.>>

Thanks MaggieMae for the great description. Hope you don't mind if I use it for future signings.

Reply by HisHughness on 8/9/12 6:33am
Msg #429845

If you do, you will be conveying incorrect information ...

... that could actually be contrary to the borrower's best interests.

"Seal" after a signature is not just another word for signature. It is a remnant from the days when seals were actually used and impressed in wax. A document under seal in some jurisdictions has legal ramifications. It may extend the statute of limitations for legal actions taken under the document. It may eliminate the necessity for proving consideration on a contract. It may do both.

What a signing agent should NEVER do is tell a borrower that the word "seal" after his signature has no significance. If you are in a jurisdiction that still recognizes the distinction of documents under seal, you could be giving the borrower incorrect information that would redound to his detriment. And, though the chances are remote, it could come home to bite the signing agent in the butt -- hard.

Reply by Karla/OR on 8/9/12 12:26pm
Msg #429893

Thanks Hugh! Appreciate the info. n/m

Reply by WendyP/CA on 8/9/12 11:27am
Msg #429883

In California your seal only goes with your notarial signature. You do not place your seal on random documents at the request of others to indicate you are a notary.

Reply by Clem/CA on 8/9/12 2:05am
Msg #429836

I once told a signor that if they did not have a seal that they could draw a dolphin there instead. They did and it was accepted by title. Good thing it was not a Provident loan!!!

Reply by Karla/OR on 8/9/12 2:27am
Msg #429839

Best of luck to you on your first signing!! I'm sure we all remember our 'first' and how humbling it was.

You will do great. Just wear your confidence 'hat' and the BO will never catch on that this is your 'first.' A trick I learned is to immediately begin reviewing the next document in the pile after handing one off to the BO to review and sign. This also keeps the paperwork flowing without hesitation.

Hope you will report back how it went.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 8/9/12 7:15am
Msg #429847

I attended a forum put on by the Vermont Secretary of State, the presenter was Paul Gilles, former deputy secretary of state and attorney. I wrote up my notes when I got home, and my notes say:

Gillies read aloud 1 VSA § 134, which describes personal and corporate seals. These requirements have been watered down from days of yore; merely writing "L.S." or "seal" opposite the signature is enough.

The statute of limitations is six years for an unsealed contract but eight years for a contract under seal (that is, sealed with the personal or corporate seal of the parties).

A contract under seal (again, sealed by the parties with their personal or corporate seals) does not require consideration.

I don't know what the law in California is. I also don't know what the law is if a signer signs in a state that does not recognize personal seals, but the other party to a contract is in a state that does. We all know that notaries (ignoring the Virginia mess) follow the law in the state where their feet are and they were commissioned, but I don't know how much that applies to personal signatures and seals.

Reply by ArtG/KS on 8/9/12 8:06am
Msg #429849

The word 'seal' at the end of a note signature line is an old legalese traditional carryover from almost back to the days when the earth was still cooling. The signature is the seal on a contract or agreement.

I always refer to my notary seal as a notary stamp. It is an impression or in the early days, an embosser. Signature of note signer is a seal to the agreement.

Reply by HisHughness on 8/9/12 8:09am
Msg #429850

Be careful, please, NotRotters

***The signature is the seal on a contract or agreement.***

This simply is not true, and can get you in trouble. Please read, and pay attention to, two preceding posts in this thread explaining the actual significance of a document under seal.

Reply by ArtG/KS on 8/9/12 8:13am
Msg #429851

Re: Be careful, please, NotRotters

Sorry Hughness but this was from a Kansas Corporate Lawyer who pointed it out in a law book from KU. I would never out guess my cousin who is a senior law partner in an Oklahoma Law firm too. If they are wrong than they are wrong.

Reply by ArtG/KS on 8/9/12 8:15am
Msg #429852

Re: Be careful, please, NotRotters

The word "distinction" comes greatly into play here too.

Reply by HisHughness on 8/9/12 8:35am
Msg #429854

This is very much one of those issues ...

... where the law varies from state to state. Many states have abandoned the commonlaw distinction between documents under seal and those not under seal. Some states have not abandoned the distinction altogether, but have watered down the ramifications.

The wisest thing a signing agent can do, if asked, is simply to say that the seal has legal significance, but you would need to consult with an attorey about what it means in this state. Unless dead certain about it, an NSA should never indicate it has no significance.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/9/12 8:41am
Msg #429855

Re: This is very much one of those issues ...

Do you think, if an attorney from my state says it means "signature", that that is sufficient reason to relate? If said attorney says it is an archaic term, that that is sufficient?

(I know, pick, pick, pick.)

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 8/9/12 9:53am
Msg #429868

Re: This is very much one of those issues ...

. . .that makes me glad I had the signing instructor I did. To Test our knowledge of signing documents, she gave us a "quiz," to notarize 2 docs - one of which was a Note. We meticulously notarized both docs and each FAILED the quiz. I still have the big "X" where we were instructed to cross out our notarization. It was definitely humbling and is a lesson I will always remember . . . that said,
I know there is debate on whether notaries should presume to act in his/her capacity regarding Note issues; but as far as I'M concerned, when I see the "(Seal)" beside the borrowers sig line, I have him/her sign, smile and MOVE ON to the next document, glad that my part is "done." And if I'm ever asked what the "Seal" means, I'll smile again, and say, "today it means your signature is the one that Counts!" When I leave to notarize my "stack," the Note isn't in that pile (:

Reply by Les_CO on 8/9/12 10:04am
Msg #429871

Re: This is very much one of those issues ...

I would say go take that course again. I suggest you notarize EACH document when signed (not later) and in some (rare) cases the note is notarized. JMO

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 8/9/12 10:23am
Msg #429873

I would say go take that course again

The course hasn't changed . . . And is Clear as rain!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/9/12 12:30pm
Msg #429894

Re: I would say go take that course again...

I agree with Les - his point being you should notarize at the table as the signers are signing, not later after the fact. Too many "what if's" can happen between leaving the signers and getting around to notarizing.

We here in FL must notarize in front of the signer....not later. And I'm sure there are many other states that require it, not sure if VA is one. It's just a good practice, IMO - not only is the act completed and to me is a more professional procedure, but if you botch your certificate (and we all know that mistakes do happen) you still have the signers right in front of you for the correction, especially when the certs are on the same page as the signatures.

JMHO

Reply by CopperheadVA on 8/9/12 2:44pm
Msg #429914

Re: I would say go take that course again...

Here in VA, the handbook is silent on that issue. I always pre-fill my notary certs before the appointment so all I have to do is sign and stamp after the signers sign the docs - it gives me peace of mind that it's done and complete at the table. The only time I don't do it is if I get to the appointment and am presented with a situation such as a coffee table signing or Starbucks signing where the table is so small that I cannot properly stamp my notary certs. In those situations I barely have enough room to juggle the paperwork, let alone stamp the docs properly. Those situations are rare, though.

Unfortunately, I have had a personal experience where I had a grave emergency happen immediately after my morning appointments, and that day I can tell you I would not have been able to go through all the docs and complete all my notary certs after the fact. That day I slapped those docs into their shipping envelopes and off they went.

Reply by bfnotary on 8/9/12 4:36pm
Msg #429925

Re: I would say go take that course again...

I always notarize at the table.

Reply by Karla/OR on 8/9/12 4:44pm
Msg #429927

I do all entries except my signature and stamp. n/m

Reply by VT_Syrup on 8/9/12 10:34am
Msg #429874

Re: This is very much one of those issues ...

The controversy surrounds the case of a note for a Louisiana property being signed in some other state. These notes usually have a "NE VARIETUR" certificate at the bottom of the note for the notary to sign. There is controversy about whether notaries from other states have the authority to sign this certificate.

I don't believe there is any controversy about whether a notary should take an acknowledgement for a note if the client asks for one. Sure, go ahead. The acknowledgement might be unnecessary, and might even cause problems, but unless the notary is also a lawyer, it is the responsibility of the client to know whether an acknowledgement is a good idea, not the responsibility of the notary.

Of course it would be a really bad idea to notarize a note if there is no notary certificate of any kind and no one asks us to.

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 8/9/12 10:45am
Msg #429876

bad idea to notarize if there is no notary certificate n/m

Reply by Les_CO on 8/9/12 9:55am
Msg #429870

Gotta agree with Hugh on this one.

I don’t care what some lawyer said, or told anyone. There are many attorneys that did not do well in their contract law courses, and still need to read and learn. JMO

Reply by ArtG/KS on 8/9/12 7:48pm
Msg #429946

Re: Gotta agree with Hugh on this one.

Well then where is the final say on this Les?

I did not disagree with Hughness. Law schools may teach correct or incorrect. With all this said, I did not state what I would do in a signing situation and no one has asked me that in this thread. I have twelve years and only 5000+ signing appointments as a signing agent, thirty years as a notary and twentyfour years as a real estate agent and Ive not seen anything sit rock solid due to litigation and case law rulings and legislated change. I have had many lawyers over the years as borrowers and its sure true, they dont all have the same facts nor opinions about any of this.

There is a distinction in this and I agree with that. End of my replies on this topic.

Reply by Les_CO on 8/10/12 9:43am
Msg #430006

Re: Art

I did not question your knowledge, experience, or ability. As a matter of fact I agree with most or your post. Notaries should not indiscriminately place their ‘stamp’ wherever they see the word ‘seal’ as I’ve seen some do. I agree the term “seal’ may be an archaic term for ‘name’ or ‘signature’. But we are also dealing with the English language so it could mean an aquatic mammal. You use the term ‘stamp’, well that’s okay too, just don’t put it on a letter. However in some cases and places, in contract law the term seal or sealed, as Hugh said may mean something entirely different than just ‘name’ or ‘signature.’ It may have to do with time, validity, and consideration. In other words a “signed” contract may differ from a “signed and sealed” contract. And that maybe we as laymen should be careful of what we say to the signers. It also depends on how and where the term is used, in some cases it does indicate that it is where a notary ‘stamp’ if necessary, is to be used. I too have been at this business a long time, but I don’t try and educate the signers. I will explain the paperwork, but try and not get into terminology. If someone asks me if I missed ‘stamping’ a document where the printed word ‘seal’ appears, I just say no my notary stamp does not go there. JMO

Reply by Notary1/CO on 8/10/12 12:10pm
Msg #430019

Kansas Statutes, Sealed Instruments

Kansas Statutes

84-2-203.&#8195;Seals inoperative. The affixing of a seal to a writing evidencing a contract for sale or an offer to buy or sell goods does not constitute the writing a sealed instrument and the law with respect to sealed instruments does not apply to such a contract or offer.

84-2a-203.&#8195;Seals inoperative. The affixing of a seal to a writing evidencing a lease contract or an offer to enter into a lease contract does not render the writing a sealed instrument and the law with respect to sealed instruments does not apply to the lease contract or offer.

77-201.&#8195;Rules of construction. In the construction of the statutes of this state the following rules shall be observed:
"Deed" is applied to an instrument conveying lands but does not imply a sealed instrument.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 8/9/12 10:46am
Msg #429877

Back to the OP!

Aside from this most fascinating (really) and informative discussion on seals is the necessity of you (SE12ER) going back to your handbook and reading how to notarize a signature. CA notaries cannot just willy-nilly place their notary stamp anywhere on a doc. There needs to be CA-approved verbiage for either an acknowledgment or a jurat on the document. If you don't see that verbiage, you don't stamp. Pretty simple; thus you will never again need to ask whether you should or shouldn't stamp when you see the word "seal" (or any other word or place where you might be tempted to inappropriately use your notary stamp.)

Because you are just starting out, keep your handbook close and refer to the exact CA-required verbiage for acks and jurats so that you will know you're using the right one(s). If the correct verbiage is not on the docs, use a loose-leaf. The SOS Web-site has acks and jurats that you can fill out and print. You might take a look at them, anyway, so you become familiar with the only two places where you use your stamp. The handbook is also on the SOS Web-site.
Good luck!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/9/12 11:34pm
Msg #429979

Re: Back to the OP!

Great advice. Also, be sure that the entire notary certificate, your signature and your notary stamp are on the same page. I just saw one again this week where the verbiage provided was correct, but it fell onto two different pages. No can do...

Reply by Notary1/CO on 8/9/12 6:45pm
Msg #429943

Sealed Instrument, Black's Law Dictionary, 8th ed

SEALED INSTRUMENT: At common law and under some statutes, an instrument to which the bound party has affixed a personal seal, usually recognized as providing indisputable evidence of the validity of the underlying obligations.

The common-law distinction between sealed and unsealed instruments has been abolished by many states, and the UCC provides that the laws applicable to sealed instruments do not apply to contracts for the sale of goods or negotiable instruments. UCC § 2-203.

“At common law, the seal served to render documents indisputable as to the terms of the
underlying obligation, thereby dispensing with the necessity of witnesses; the sealed instrument
was considered such reliable evidence that it actually became the contract itself — called a
‘specialty’ — the loss of which meant loss of all rights of the obligee against the obligor. The seal
also had many other consequences at common law, some of which have been retained in
jurisdictions which still recognize the seal .... In states where the seal is still recognized, its
primary legal significance is often the application of a longer statute of limitations to actions on
sealed instruments.” 69 Am. Jur. 2d Seals § 2, at 617–18 (1993).

“In medieval England a wax seal may have performed [the functions of a formality] tolerably
well. But in the United States few people owned or used a seal and the ritual deteriorated to the point that wax was dispensed with and printing houses decorated the signature lines of their standard forms with the printed letters ‘L.S.’ for locus sigilli (place of the seal). Perfunctory
invocation of the rules for sealed documents called into question the seal's utility in making
promises enforceable.” E. Allan Farnsworth, Changing Your Mind: The Law of Regretted
Decisions 46 (1998).

Search your state laws for any reference to "sealed instrument".

In East Asian societies, the use of a personal seal is common. Most people in China possess a personal name seal, known as a chop. Red ink is used to represent red blood, and red is considered a lucky color.

Reply by SE12ER on 8/10/12 1:16am
Msg #429983

Thank you all for your feedback and advise!!

I really learned to appreciate and value this forum. It is a great place for beginners like me. Appreciate all for sharing your wisdom and knowledge.

The signing went well!! The preparation work was a little intense but the outcome was great. Thanks everyone!!