Posted by Pierces Notary Services on 8/16/12 10:56am
Msg #430675

What would you do?

I have a closing today and finally got a hold of the Mrs. to confirm the appt. and she proceeds to tell me that her husband has dimentia and that he understands what he is doing but as of tomorrow he will forget what he did today. What would you do?

Reply by ikando on 8/16/12 11:01am
Msg #430677

I'd inform my hiring party, first.

I'd also find out if there is a POA for the wife to sign for husband, and if so, the docs may need to be redrawn accordingly.

Reply by jnew on 8/16/12 11:06am
Msg #430678

Did she tell you what time tomorrow? Seriously, she might be the worst worry of the family.

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 8/17/12 8:33pm
Msg #430884

I may be cynical . . .

or have seen too many mystery movies, But I agree with "jnew" about the reporting family member. First thing that came to MY mind when I read the OP was: could be someone in the family pulling off the perfect sabotage/setup.

As for identifying someone's capacity at a signing, If I don't detect/smell/notice drug or alcohol-related impairment, i don't feel I have the experience to turn away from an assignment on the basis of "perceived" incompetence. I'm subject to memory lapses (and I'm only forty-something!) quite often. So, is my younger sibling with 6 kids (he wouldn't remember his name if he didn't hear it all the time).

I recall the "on the basis of presented evidence" Or "personally known to me" presenting a certain level of RISK in any notarization. If someone volunteered that "he did time for forgery and printing counterfeit bills back in the day," then proceeded to get "another ID because my driver's license expired," Do I walk away??

Reply by A S Johnson on 8/16/12 11:11am
Msg #430681

Call party who hired you for instructions as how to habdle. Having this medical condition may need to be addressed by them.
As for you, the Notary, if he has a good I D and while you are present do not demostrate any signs of not being in his a goog mind, what is your concern?
Your job is while you are doing the signing.
You are not an medical doctor and qualitified to determine any medical condition.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 8/16/12 2:54pm
Msg #430717

What is your concern ??

I'd say anyone in this situation had better have a lot of concern.

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/16/12 3:18pm
Msg #430725

Agree with A S Johnson

<<<As for you, the Notary, if he has a good I D and while you are present do not demostrate any signs of not being in his a goog mind, what is your concern?.....Your job is while you are doing the signing.>>>

BINGO!! I've had two attorneys tell me that alzheimer/dementia patients can have times of clarity/lucidity and the notary is responsible the signer's awareness and ability to communicate while in the notary's presence. Whether the client knows what planet they're on before the notary arrives or after the notary leaves is not the notary's concern or responsibility. If the wife told me the husband won't remember anything tomorrow - that's not my problem and would not stop me from notarizing for the husband.

With that said, contacting the hiring party with the info is the right procedure....it's their call from there. Those notaries who choose not to notarize for alzheimer/dementia signers - that's your call and perfectly okay. But it's nothing to freak out about either. JMHO

Reply by jba/fl on 8/16/12 3:36pm
Msg #430726

Re: Agree with A S Johnson

Using some of the logic displayed here, I would not qualify at times as I don't remember what I had to eat the day before. It would have to be something spectacular or special in some way for that to happen. Doesn't mean I was unable to discern whether that was something I liked, should have been eating or even healthy. And forget about last week....well, I have already.

I do not have, as far as I know, dementia, altzheimers or poor memory either. Some things we do, they are done, and are unremarkable and you know it will not be a Jeopardy answer.

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/16/12 6:33pm
Msg #430758

Re: Agree with A S Johnson

<<<Using some of the logic displayed here, I would not qualify at times as I don't remember what I had to eat the day before.>>>

I can certainly identify with you on that one. Hubby and I were channel surfing for movies to watch and I said, "This looks interesting, let's watch." He tells me we saw it already....and rather recently. We watched most of it and I could not recall even one scene in that movie but hubby insisted we saw it. After that one we turned on another movie and he insisted we saw that one, too. What's good for memory? Ginkgo baloba?

Reply by Pierces Notary Services on 8/16/12 11:17am
Msg #430685

I caled the title co and lender cancelled and said she will need a power of attorney.

Reply by Frank/NC on 8/16/12 11:25am
Msg #430689

My question is, "How does she get a POA if he is deemed not to be aware of what he is signing or has some form of dementia? It sounds like she may have to get a court order and I bet that will be some ordeal to go through and involves medical examinations and a doctor stating he is incapable of understanding.
I guess this case reiterates some of the legal forms we all should have in the event of sudden injury or illness where we can't make decisions.

Reply by ikando on 8/16/12 11:41am
Msg #430693

Frank, that's precisely why I mention to the younger members of a family when I'm notarizing a POA that THEY should set one up too. One never knows when the need will arise.

Reply by bfnotary on 8/16/12 5:41pm
Msg #430747

You know what, ikando, that is a really good idea. That got me thinking. The husband and I are going to do that one of these days soon. You never know what is going to happen. I would rather have POA drawn up before we need them. It would be such a problem getting court orders for them if the need arises.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 8/16/12 11:18am
Msg #430687

Consult my attorney.

I had a similar issue a couple of years ago. I can't tell you what I did as that would be legal advice, however, you should not go into this without knowing what the legal ramifications can be, especially now that you posted on a public forum.

Reply by Pierces Notary Services on 8/16/12 11:29am
Msg #430690

I work for an attorney and although he was not available to ask him what to do because he was in court I can hear him in my head and he'd probably say don't do it. This was going to be on my lunch break. Hopefully she has a power of attorney for him now because now would be too late to get one. I'm going to ask him when he gets back from the courthouse.

Reply by NJDiva on 8/16/12 12:17pm
Msg #430701

As Notaries, IMO,we have a responsibility to make sure that

a person is aware, cognizant and knows what it is they're agreeing to. This person was deemed to have dementia. Why would it even be a question? How can one determine if he truly understands just because he looks, sounds, acts that way on that particular day?

How ethically (lets not even talk about in good conscience) is it even something to consider? My integrity means more to me than the dollar. But hey, none of us are without fault. If someone thinks it's okay and can sleep in peace then so be it; though I disagree, I am not perfect and have no room to judge...I'm not saying I DON'T judge, I'm just saying I have no room to..lol

Reply by Jessica Ward on 8/16/12 12:15pm
Msg #430699

I wouldn't touch it. No way!

I feel like as soon as I've been told there's a concern of competence, (even if I might not have seen it myself when I arrived), I have a responsibility NOT to proceed.

Reply by JPH13/MO on 8/16/12 1:43pm
Msg #430707

My Mom died from Dementia/Alzheimer's...

Alzheimer's is a form of dementia. There were quite a few years when she was quite lucid until at least late afternoon. Late afternoon on tends to be the worst time for anyone with this horrible disease. If they are lucid when you get there and understand the docs, I would not have a problem with it, but I would advise someone to get a POA as soon as possible and have it done in the morning when the person is most lucid.

Until near the end (which can go on another year after over a decade of having the disease), it mostly effects short-term memory. They can remember things in the distant past quite well, and if they had owned the home for a while would no doubt understand what was going on. Near the end, their minds become too foggy and they eventually can no longer recognize even their own children, nor speak coherently, or walk. They eventually die due to their body no longer being able to even do the automatic things like breathing and eating. It is a terrible way to go, and it's so unfair that I can put a pet down who is in misery but couldn't help my Mom, who during her lucid moments at first kept trying to kill herself and asking everyone else to kill her, as she had friends who had the same disease and knew what was happening to her.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/16/12 2:37pm
Msg #430716

Re: I wouldn't touch it. No way!

I agree with Jessica. According to the OP, the Mrs. brought up the fact that her husband has dementia and basically stated that his short term memory is not working. A person with that level of dementia can sound perfectly reasonable one moment, then the next ask a question about what was just covered.

If told that the husband would not remember anything tomorrow that he signed today, I wouldn't feel comfortable proceeding. I would also call the client asap and would be very surprised if they wanted to proceed under those circumstances. Even if they did, I believe I'd let them find someone else to do it.

Reply by ME/NJ on 8/16/12 2:09pm
Msg #430709

We are not doctors and who knows what the persons medical condition is. If she was that concern she should of had a POA set up knowing well of spouses condition. I would not do this knowing this information if challenged in court in the future.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 8/16/12 10:14pm
Msg #430768

I actually was in the same situation last month. TC called wanting me to do a closing. When I talked to the Mrs. she told me her husband was in a nursing home with Alheizemrrs..She said she would bring him home for the closing. I asked her how his memory is..she stated some days are better than others and she hoped he would have a good day during this closing.

After our conversation I called the TC and advised them of the situation and also told them that I was not comfortable in doing this. They understood my position.

I have to be able to sleep well at night and I could not do this and feel good about this. The risk or the money is just not worth it!

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 8/17/12 9:00pm
Msg #430888

Ethics can get blurry . . . I would not want a predatory lender as a REGULAR client - coming from a credit environment and understanding (and feeling disgust for) these traps people get into. However, if an occasional 300% loan came my way, I couldn't say I wouldn't witness (I'd have to gulp real HARD and leave in a hurry before I changed my mind!!!).

Once, a colleague turned away someone requesting a consumer loan for a certain medical procedure that is morally objectionable to many - including myself. I agreed that I'd be very Uncomfortable with funding for this. But my job is to Lend - not to question client choices.

I certainly understand responsible professionals wanting to "save folks from themselves."
But I wish I always knew how to balance my moral leanings with my specific ROLE at the time.