Posted by TacomaBoy on 8/1/12 1:48pm
Msg #428981

WoW! Digital / Electronic Notarizations.

I guess this is the "cutting edge" in our industry. Has anyone checked into joining the latest rage?

http://notarynow.signnow.com/mobile-notary/?gclid=CPKnwNiKx7ECFccBRQodfE8AzA

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/1/12 2:02pm
Msg #428986

You're being facetious, right?

This has been discussed here extensively for the past year and a half or so, and I know you're been around. I'm guessing you're being sarcastic in your question?

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 8/1/12 2:10pm
Msg #428988

Really?

From their sales pitch:

"Documents notarized in Virginia by an online notary are legally valid in all 50 states. The National Association of Secretaries of State has published that all states recognize the validity of an acknowledgment prepared by an out-of-state notary. This has been the case for hundreds of years, and has been tested in courts. All states and the federal government have passed laws enabling electronic, out of state notarization."

<<... all states recognize the validity of an acknowledgment prepared by an out-of-state notary. This has been the case for hundreds of years, and has been tested in courts.>> This is obviousy true, (tho I don't know about the "hundreds of years" part,) but I know the rest of this is not true for CA and based on numerous NR posts, I didn't know it was legally valid anywhere except VA.

From the SOS office Web site:
Online webcam notarization is invalid and illegal in the State of California.
A private company claims to have the first online notarization website and has sent misleading information and made false claims to California notaries public concerning a new online notarization service. The web-based platform purports to allow a person to submit copies of identification over the Internet and to use a webcam in lieu of a personal appearance in front of a notary public. Appearance via webcam does not meet the requirements for notarization in California.
California notaries public are authorized under current law to perform electronic notarizations as long as all the requirements for a traditional paper-based notarial act are met, including the use of a seal for all but two specific documents used in real estate transactions. California law requires a person to appear personally before a notary public to obtain notarial acts like acknowledgments or jurats. This means the party must be physically present before the notary public. A video image or other form of non-physical representation is not a personal appearance in front of a notary public under current state or federal laws. The technology solution offered by this private company does not comply with California law.

Reply by TacomaBoy on 8/1/12 2:25pm
Msg #428991

Really?

I was just wondering if any of the Virginia NotRotters have indulged in video notarizations, rather than jumping into there rigs and driving to a notary job in, say, Oklahoma. Please share your experiences.

Reply by JandB on 8/1/12 3:42pm
Msg #428999

Re: Really?

From the website of SignHere: There must be a video record of the online notarization, and the user must be identified using one of several methods authorized by the state. We use Experian, a leading global information services company, as our identification provider and to prevent fraud through their Knowledge Based Authentication.

From CA Website: The web-based platform purports to allow a person to submit copies of identification over the Internet and to use a webcam in lieu of a personal appearance in front of a notary public.

Knowledge Based Authentication is a far cry from "copies of ID over the internet." It is much more secure than looking at an driver's license. If you have enough cash, you can buy a driver's license. If you have ever had to answer 4 questions pulled from your distant past in order to identify yourself, then you have experienced Knowledge Based Authentication. It's not easy.

I'll bet CA and other states will eventually have to rethink their stance. The question of how to identify the signer has been answered. I'm putting on my hard hat now.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 8/1/12 4:00pm
Msg #429000

Re: Really?

I think JandB's description of knowledge based authentication (let's abbreviate it KBA) has merit as far as the general future of online notarization, but is beside the point under current Virginia law.

As far as merit is concerned, KBA would add value to an in-person identification with a photo id, and adds a great deal to a web-based transaction where a photo id is held up to the web cam. But KBA is vulnerable to abuse by people who know the purported signer well, such as a parent, ex-spouse, or adult child. So some kind of real-time visual or biometric identification of the signer is necessary. A video recording is NOT SUFFICIENT. The FIRST order of business is to PREVENT fraudulent transactions. Preserving evidence to detect and prosecute fraud at a later date is helpful, but not sufficient by itself.

The reason I think KBA is beside the point under current Virginia law is because I think the section available here:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+47.1-2

demands something else. That section requires, for a video-conference base notarization, "(b) an antecedent in-person identity proofing process in accordance with the specifications of the Federal Bridge Certification Authority." But the firm that puts all the knowledge-based questions never met in person with the signer to prove the signers identity, so I don't think KBA satisfies this requirement.

I would be interested to read any citation by JandB of a Virginia law or regulation that shows KBA satisfies the identification requirement.

Reply by MikeC/TX on 8/1/12 4:15pm
Msg #429001

Re: Really?

From what I've read, the VA law is not really intended for general notary work. In the first place, not every VA notary can perform these notarizations - a separate commission as an electronic notary is required. That could always change at some point in the future, but for now this is a specialized sub-function of notary work. Also, I may be wrong but I don't believe KBA meets the requirements of the VA law. Yes, it is more secure than just looking at a license, but the VA law is quite specific about what is required.

The guys who are touting this stuff apparently either don't understand what the law says or don't care. My guess is that they will happily sign up any VA notary, properly commissioned or not. Putting aside the civil and criminal liability these notaries might be exposing themselves to, their notarizations could very well be considered to be invalid (even within their own state). Depending on the laws in the state where the document will be used, that could also invalidate the document itself.

This is just a train wreck waiting to happen...

Reply by VT_Syrup on 8/1/12 4:51pm
Msg #429006

Re: Really?

It could get worse than the specific notarizations performed by non-compliant Virginia notaries being invalid. We could IMAGINE a state passing a law that does not recognize ANY notarial act from a state that allows web-conference notarization unless the certificate states the signer appeared in person, in the sense of being in the same room.

Reply by ToniK on 8/1/12 4:25pm
Msg #429002

I am a VA notary

I have my electronic digital certificate ie electronic notary seal. From what I gather from the VA notary handbook, they must still be physically present for notarizations. Or I guess that is where "verification of fact" comes in. Im also an investigator. But I wont just use my public office to do video notarizations. Also what I gather is that its for use intended within VA, not to be used outside of VA for other states to accept. But as someone said before this has been discussed.

Reply by MW/VA on 8/1/12 4:54pm
Msg #429007

I haven't gotten involved in that side of thing. What I

find most interesting is that NNA, who is usually the first one to exploit news, has been pretty quiet on this issue. I suspect from other info we've seen about the attorney that used to be part of NNA & now operating here in VA, that someone saw a loophole that would open the door to national notarizations. That was not VA's intent, I'm sure. It will be interesting to see where it goes.

Reply by ToniK on 8/1/12 5:03pm
Msg #429009

Re: I haven't gotten involved in that side of thing. What I

Im thinking this (or at least what I hope is intended) is for the few e-signings out there that the e-seal can be used while we are at the table. But I sent an email to our State notary office folks and got not one answer on this new law. lol.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 8/1/12 5:12pm
Msg #429011

Re: I haven't gotten involved in that side of thing. What I

Electronic notarizations were allowed in Virginia and many other places if the signer came in person to the notary and the notarization was done on-the-spot.

I think two things were clearly intended by the parts of the law that went into effect July 1:

1. With the right equipment and types of ID, the notary could be at one place in Virginia, and the signer could be at another place in Virginia; the notary would watch and listen to the signer over a video-conference link.

2. The computer where the documents are stored, and the computer that executes instructions to store the finished document, could be located anywhere.

My hunch is that the business people who pushed the legislation through intended all along for Virginia notaries to be notarizing for people located all over the world, but they didn't say this explicitly in the law in the hopes that the legislators who were not their buddies wouldn't notice.

Reply by MW/VA on 8/1/12 7:25pm
Msg #429021

I don't see it as applying to e-signings, Toni. I've

thought all along that it's primarily for military/gov. usage.
You can go to the VA SOC site & get the VA Notary Handbook for 2012. You want to read the parts about electronic notarization very carefully. It's hard to decipher, and there's been lots of discussion on the forum about the pros & cons. It's clear that it's being misused by the particular internet co. that's been discussed. They tried it last year in NJ, too.

Reply by FGX/NJ on 8/1/12 5:11pm
Msg #429010

Re: I haven't gotten involved in that side of thing. What I

The people who wrote the law (FutureLaw) DID intend this to be used nation wide;as the first webcam notarization was performed by Timothy Reiniger ( a Futurelaw consultant). It was for a client in Ca, and it was done at 12:23 EDT July 2012.
Another consultant at FL said they were going to offer this to general public. At the moment they only do it for business clients

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/1/12 5:17pm
Msg #429012

Weeelllll...not really...

"the first webcam notarization was performed by Timothy Reiniger ( a Futurelaw consultant). It was for a client in Ca, and it was done at 12:23 EDT July 2012."

There's someone in Florida who had a webcam notarization done by a NJ notary over a year ago. Is it legal? Who knows now - but it WAS done when all the brouhaha started over this webcam company....and that person is right now sitting on a notarized document that, unless they knew better, is valid..

THAT'S why this company is so very dangerous. Note I said "webcam notarization by a NJ notary over a year ago" - so there are very uneducated notaries out there who are being sold a bill of good and thinking they're fine - they're probably being told "Everyone does it!"..

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/2/12 1:03am
Msg #429065

Re: Weeelllll...not really...

Another aspect of this that has only been briefly mentioned here is the issue of the venue. Seems to me that in all the discussions about webcam notarization the practical reasons for a notarization seem to have been lost. And, as I understand it, one of those is to establish definitively where the signer was physically when (s)he signed the document by whatever means.

I believe a recent news item illustrates the importance of this. Apparently a family member (or members) of Michael Jackson are questioning the validity of his Will, saying that he was physically not at the location the Will was supposedly signed on the date it was supposedly signed. This may or may not be a perfect example because the document being questioned is a Will, which is frequently not notarized - at least in CA. However, I believe the principle could apply to any notarized document. (I don't follow this stuff too closely, so I have no idea whether or not his Will was notarized.)

As for webcam notarizations, I can just hear it now... "No, your honor, I could not have signed that document because I can prove I was in NYC on that date, and the venue on that document says Las Vegas". Well, you get the idea. Point is that sometimes there are real consequences to the information that is included in a notary certificate. And the venue is one important element. I've yet to read anything about how a webcam notarization would address the issue of a venue. That lead me to agree with those who say the Virginia law was intended to be used within the state only.

Seems like there's always someone willing to distort or ignore the law for their own personal gain.

Reply by MW/VA on 8/1/12 7:27pm
Msg #429023

Again, I suspect the NNA in this whole thing. I think

they're relying on ignorance to open the door to nationwide notarizations, and there really is no such thing IMHO.

Reply by MW/VA on 8/1/12 7:29pm
Msg #429024

I wonder if it's a whole lot different than money

laundering. It appears that he set up a VA co. just to run notarizations across the VA electronic notary provision. It's too complex for me to understand with my feeble little mind.