Posted by ArtG/KS on 8/10/12 3:56pm
Msg #430045

seals again

The previous thread was insteresting and the word distinction came up a couple of times.
Not to beat this any further but just today I have a doc pack where the wording appeared just above the signature line of the borrowers. "Witness the hand(s) and seal(s) of the undersigned." This was all in caps too and on the Note.

The answers given on what to say are for the most part accurate. In Kansas Statutes Annotated 53-109 and many other references scattered throughout the Kansas Statutes cover a lot of different detail on Notaries Public. Its not codified into one segment of the KSAs. It does not give much mention, however, to signing agents. If we get an old Senate Bill 357 passed here someday, we will have pre-testing and pre-training for notaries public. It will not include references to signing agents unless that is added on later. It Will include legislative authority for electronic key notarizations.

I keep in touch with our S.O.S. on questions that arrise with notartizations. My lawyer also only answers my questions on the basis of a "researched legal opinion".

Finally what do I tell borrowers when asked about the word seal. I just say we only need your signature on that line. If you have any other questions, please contact your loan officer about that. Yes I do identify the docs and what they are. -end of topic-

Reply by Les_CO on 8/10/12 4:13pm
Msg #430050

Re: seals again/ Well said Art!


But as someone once said “we’re not in Kansas anymore” (probably when they got to California)
There may be some not from Kansas the read this board, if so learn from Art,
and know your States laws.
JMO

Reply by Notary1/CO on 8/10/12 7:49pm
Msg #430069

Re: seals again/ Well said Art!

What does Colorado law say about private seals?

We used to be in Kansas. Eastern Colorado used to be part of Kansas Territory from 1854 until 1861. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_Territory

Denver City was founded in November 1858 as a mining town during the Pikes Peak Gold Rush in western Kansas Territory. It is named after Kansas Territorial Governor James W. Denver.

Reply by Notary1/CO on 8/10/12 7:25pm
Msg #430065

Private Seals

Kansas Statutes, Chapter 16 Contracts and Promises, Article 1 General Provisions

16-106. Seals. The use of private seals in written contracts (except the seals of corporations) is abolished, and the addition of a private seal to an instrument of writing shall not affect its character in any respect.

History: G.S. 1868, ch. 21, § 6; Oct. 31; R.S. 1923, 16-106.

For other states, search your statutes for "private seal" and "sealed instrument". Many states have abolished the use of private seals or now disregard them under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC).

You may see private seals being used on documents by sovereign citizens.

Reply by ArtG/KS on 8/10/12 8:33pm
Msg #430072

Re: Private Seals

Too many adjectives in this. Seal and private seal may just be two different things or distinctions. Case law might serve better whereby a judge has ruled on its meaning. No Im not going to quote the case here.

Reply by Notary1/CO on 8/11/12 1:00am
Msg #430085

Re: Private Seals

Black's Law Dictionary:

private seal. A corporate or individual seal, as distinguished from a public seal.

corporate seal. A seal adopted by a corporation for executing and authenticating its corporate
and legal instruments.

public seal. A seal used to certify documents belonging to a public authority or government
bureau.

Reply by ArtG/KS on 8/11/12 8:46am
Msg #430100

Re: Private Seals

So you say the seal word at the end of a signature line adheres to Blacks Law Dictionary rather that a state level Court ruling?

Reply by Notary1/CO on 8/11/12 10:36am
Msg #430110

Re: Private Seals

You said too many adjectives in "private seal". Only one adjective. I provided a definition of a private seal from a credible source. The same definition is found in contract law and the Law of Sealed Instruments. I referenced a Kansas statute regarding private seals being abolished, similar to many other states.

Obviously, there are different types of seals: private, corporate, public official, notary, court, government, surveyor, professional engineer, etc.

Of course, Black's law dictionary definition is not a substitute for your state statutes or case law.
What does the Kansas court ruling say about private seals?

Reply by ArtG/KS on 8/11/12 8:59am
Msg #430101

Re: Private Seals

"Lets take the word "stilted". "Stiffley dignified or Formal". I will not allow myself to be trapped with old old definitions in the rapidly changing word meanings of language or in the legal environment. Words both change and take on new meanings almost daily in today's society. "

The above was slammed at me once a few years ago by a friend who was a sitting judge at the time.

Reply by Notary1/CO on 8/11/12 4:18pm
Msg #430139

Re: Private Seals

If you think Black's definition of private seal is outdated, then show your new definition and cite your source. You are not trapped by anything in a legal dictionary. If your state laws provide a definition, then use that.

Does Kansas law have a definition of a private seal? If not, where do you look up the definition?

Reply by MikeC/TX on 8/11/12 7:54pm
Msg #430155

This is a silly discussion - there's no state that requires the use of an actual seal anymore, for the simple reason that very few people (if any) have one. It's an anachronism - if it were required today, all commerce would grind to a halt.

"Witness the hand and seal of the undersigned" is just outdated verbiage that some lawyers can't let go of, so they insist on putting it in documents. Does the existence of a physical seal add some sort of additional significance to the document, as HisHughness suggests? Maybe, but it's probably moot because ALMOST NOBODY THESE DAYS HAS A PERSONAL SEAL.

If a BO asks what that means, the best response is to tell them that the verbiage dates to the 18th century. If they actually have a seal they can use it (they'll have to supply the wax..). Otherwise, a signature is fine.

Reply by Notary1/CO on 8/11/12 9:21pm
Msg #430159

Texas Statutes - Section 121.015: PRIVATE SEAL OR SCROLL NOT REQUIRED

A private seal or scroll may not be required on a written instrument other than an instrument made by a corporation. Added by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 268, Sec. 2, eff. Sept. 1, 1993.

Some states have abolished the use of private seals, others have limited or nullified their effect. But not all states. Many states still allow for a corporate seal to be attached.

I would not give the BO any legal advice, legal opinion or legal explanation. If they have legal questions, they should contact their attorney. Private seals are used in Asian societies.

For fun, do a Google search for the private seals of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/11/12 10:10pm
Msg #430162

Are you Robert and moved to CO? This mundane minutiae

is thrilling us all. OK - you can do research....I'll give you that. 2 days of seals?

Find: archiac, trifles

Reply by Les_CO on 8/12/12 10:59am
Msg #430180

Re: Are you Robert and moved to CO? This mundane minutiae

For those that know, I’d agree….But my friend with a SS gets at least one package a week where some unknowing notary has ‘stamped’ their notary stamp, everywhere the printed word “SEAL” appears, and they have to go back, or somehow get those docs re-signed. I pretty much know my States notary laws (but they are always changing) I do NOT know all States notarial/recording/real estate/lending laws. I read this board every day and I’m sometimes dumbfounded, and astounded by some questions, and opinions, and advice given. I think the upshot of this whole discussion should be: Learn this business, and what you need to know to do it properly. If you don’t know, don’t guess, ask. And if you are not an (the signers) attorney don’t give legal advice. JMO

Reply by jba/fl on 8/12/12 12:01pm
Msg #430181

So, is Notary1/CO your nom de plume? n/m

Reply by Les_CO on 8/12/12 2:02pm
Msg #430191

Re: So, is Notary1/CO your nom de plume?

No....Not a chance....He/she seldom agrees with my posts (probably 'cause most of mine are just my "off-the-cuff" opinions, and not well researched. I don’t believe in anonymous/not linked posts. You all know where to find me, and if I’m wrong, I’m wrong….I was wrong once… or maybe a couple of times…. Or… !!

Reply by Notary1/CO on 8/12/12 1:29pm
Msg #430188

Re: Florida Notary Manual

Find and read the Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries, page 67:

"Although rarely done, a person may use a private seal to authenticate his or her signature. More commonly, a corporate seal may be affixed next to the officer’s signature when he or she signs on behalf of the corporation."

Reply by HisHughness on 8/12/12 2:56pm
Msg #430193

Re: Florida Notary Manual

You've got to admire singleness of purpose.

Well, maybe you don't have to, but you probably should, unless it's a product of OCD, or limited vision, or a glitch in the poster's google search function.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/12/12 8:51pm
Msg #430229

Re: Florida Notary Manual

No admiration for cut and paste in a continual so-called sport of one-up-manship.

Aspergers

Reply by VT_Syrup on 8/12/12 7:06pm
Msg #430214

A situation where it could matter

In those states that still recognize private seals, there is a fairly uncommon situation where it could matter to a notary. We read here from time to time that a signer (most often a wife) is added at the last minute, and a new signature line is added with a pen and the new signer's name is printed by hand and signed in cursive. Failure to add the word "seal" near the new signer's name means the new signer has failed to seal the document. The recipient might or might not care, and might or might not reject the document. So if the pre-printed signature line has "seal" near it, it could be a problem if the hand-printed signature line doesn't have it too.

Of much less significance, in a state with no required wording for acknowledgements, a notary might be given an acknowledgement certificate that says something like "This 12th day of August, 2012, A. B. and C. D personally appeared, and acknowledged this instrument, by them sealed and subscribed, to be their free act and deed." Some notaries might think that the signers didn't seal the instrument, and might feel the need to attach a loose certificate. But, in states that recognize private seals, if the word seal appears near the signers name, the signers DID seal the instrument, and the acknowledgement can be used as-is.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/12/12 8:59pm
Msg #430230

I am going to be in the state of euphoria when

this discussion is done. I have my own wax, direct from my ears since I will no longer need it there. (metaphorically speaking)

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/13/12 12:07am
Msg #430246

Re: I am going to be in the state of euphoria when

I want to be euphoric, too. This made me laugh...maybe even out loud...but the dog is asleep in the other room so it is hard to gauge. He generally raises his head and looks at me if I lol. Without that cue from him, who knows.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/13/12 9:17am
Msg #430258

Re: I am going to be in the state of euphoria when

hmmmm....If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

Reply by HisHughness on 8/13/12 10:36am
Msg #430262

Went by the Austin Zoo Thursday

Had to notarize a POA for the zookeeper who oversees the aquatic exhibit. We signed it in his office in a basement beneath the exhibits of the various animals -- penguins, walri, seals.

So the POA was signed under seal(s).