Posted by BrendaTx on 7/9/12 7:06pm
Msg #426124

Bewildered

I have seen proof today that through the use of the site-that-shall-remain-nameless a Va. notary performed an online notarization FROM the State of Virginia on a document that originated in Pennsylvania.

As best as I can tell no special equipment and/or ID techniques were used as we read about in the new Va. laws. I am disgusted by this.

Reply by Les_CO on 7/9/12 7:09pm
Msg #426126

But was it legal?

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/9/12 7:09pm
Msg #426127

I don't know. It makes my head hurt. n/m

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 7/9/12 7:12pm
Msg #426128

could you share a bit more Brenda? ie, the proof?

I would like to see what you are referring to. thanks, Donna

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/9/12 7:17pm
Msg #426129

No. I cannot.

It is not mine to share. However, here's another example of it that is on the wire.

http://www.sbwire.com/press-releases/new-virginia-law-prompts-worlds-first-online-legal-notarization-151907.htm

Reply by jba/fl on 7/9/12 7:28pm
Msg #426131

Re: No. I cannot.

"and the notary’s electronic journal data virtually eliminates the possibility of identity theft because it includes an image of the signer. "

DL's can be faked and use any image....well, we shall see where this goes next. VA will get all the work, will other states recognize that work?

Interesting....but I do see lots of worms coming from that cam, er, can.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/9/12 7:31pm
Msg #426135

Not to mention that it has not ever been stated in

a state's laws that a notarization of this nature (across state lines) is legal. There will be courthouse test cases....especially on those billybobs (or whatever Va. calls their billybobs) who are not using the right type of ID equipment.

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 7/9/12 8:06pm
Msg #426148

Electronic Legalization in VA

Our handbook ((§ 47.113, § 47.113.1) states:

"All electronic notarial acts performed by Virginia electronic notaries are deemed to have been
performed within the Commonwealth of Virginia and are governed by Virginia law. This reflects
the reality that electronic documents may not be physically stored in Virginia. In fact, the
network based digital economy has no geographic boundaries and is, therefore, borderless.

Thus, regardless of the physical location of the electronic document, Virginia law governs the
electronic notarial act Virginia electronic notaries also have limited extraterritorial powers. An electronic notary public may perform any authorized notarial act outside of the Commonwealth for any writing intended to be used in the Commonwealth of Virginia or by the United States government. Please note the remote notarial act is not extraterritorial because it is deemed to have been performed within the Commonwealth of Virginia at the place where the electronic notary is located." [end quote]

For some, the "stickiness" may be in the technological aspects (I, for one have only used Skype a couple of times for seminars, training, etc.). There are strict requirements for the live tele-conferencing (used already in VA courts).

Our code further states:

Ref: Section 47.17
"Additional requirements for performing electronic notarial acts.
B. The registration form shall (i) be signed by the applicant using the electronic signature described in the form; (ii) include any decrypting instructions, codes, keys, or software that allow the registration to be read; and (iii) be transmitted electronically to the Secretary.
C. Nothing herein shall be construed to prevent an electronic notary from using updated technology or technologies during the term of the commission; however, the electronic notary shall notify the Secretary electronically within 90 days of installation or use of such updated technology or technologies and provide a brief description thereof."

In addition to the journal, the video files also have to be maintained for 5 years.

Seems like the appeal may be more for the "facebook," and youthful tech geniuses than for some of us over 40!(:

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/9/12 8:40pm
Msg #426155

Re: Electronic Legalization in VA

"Thus, regardless of the physical location of the electronic document, Virginia law governs the
electronic notarial act Virginia electronic notaries also have limited extraterritorial powers. >>>>>An electronic notary public may perform any authorized notarial act outside of the Commonwealth for any writing intended to be used in the Commonwealth of Virginia or by the United States government.<<<<< Please note the remote notarial act is not extraterritorial because it is deemed to have been performed within the Commonwealth of Virginia at the place where the electronic notary is located." [end quote]"

Does this say to those who are reading this that recordable documents destined for a state other than the Commonwealth of Virginia are not an authorized notary act?

Thank you, NVLSL...is this in a new handbook? I appreciate you sharing it very much.

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 7/9/12 9:03pm
Msg #426162

Re: Electronic Legalization in VA

Glad to share!

HANDBOOK FOR VIRGINIA
NOTARIES PUBLIC
Published by the Office of the Secretary of the Commonwealth
July 1, 2011

Notary Public Division Post Office Box 1795
Richmond, Virginia 23218-1795

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/9/12 9:09pm
Msg #426164

Re: Electronic Legalization in VA

That's what I was wondering, too. The way I read it, it kind of means that the notarizations are only valid for documents to be used within Virginia... that would make sense to me.

Except at the end it says, "or by the United States government."

Now that's the part that confuses me... how can a single state make a law that is to be recognized nationwide? Last time I checked the Constitution there was this little thing called the Tenth Amendment.

It definitely something that will have to be settled state-by-state, I think.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/10/12 11:39am
Msg #426230

Ms. Marian...

>>Except at the end it says, "or by the United States government."<<

I believe that this is THE GOVERNMENT.

Arlington, Va. and all that, which is the reason that Virginia was a great place to start this if it had to be started.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/9/12 7:29pm
Msg #426133

Please note that the co in this article does not have

the same name of the company that I mentioned earlier...I refuse to state the name.

What becomes apparent is that there is no concern for the legality of the notarization, the issue is money...making more of it on this technology.

Notarization is a state by state law...this is in mighty darn slippery territory.
We shall see where our politicians and lawmakers shall fall into this. It will be interesting. I cannot WAIT until the first lawsuit rips this one wide open.

Reply by NJDiva on 7/9/12 7:32pm
Msg #426136

I don't think that this is the type of notarizing

they legalized though is it?

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/9/12 7:40pm
Msg #426141

I agree with you, NJ-Deever n/m

Reply by NJDiva on 7/9/12 7:44pm
Msg #426144

"NJ-Deever" lol hmmmm n/m

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/9/12 8:00pm
Msg #426147

This is going to end badly... as much as many of us can't stand the XYZ, this is probably one of the issues that they and their national status are needed for.

I'm all for advanced technology... but it's just way too iffy at this point, and too many ways to get around it. One of these services makes you validate your identity using information from your credit file. Okay, great... but most of us have inaccurate information on our credit files, and it's not difficult for people to obtain that information and misuse it. How does a notary in VA know if a CA iD is legit? You can't hold it up to a webcam and verify the laser cutout of the state bear. You have to do that with the ID in hand.

Besides, in the blog post from you know who posted earlier, he proudly admitted to being a HACKER and discussed his system on HACKING forums.

Way to instill the trust there, buddy... Now, granted, I know there are a lot of white-hat hackers out there, but when you're trying to build your business and gain credibility you don't open you blog post with, "I was something of a hacker in High School..."

The guy boasts about being ex-military and some self-made expert on identity fraud and blasts notaries for not understanding notarial law, yet isn't even a notary himself... not in California from where he operates. Neither he or his partner are, actually. It really makes me wonder if he's even eligible to do so...

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/10/12 1:57am
Msg #426206

Probably wouldn't pass the background check... n/m

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 7/9/12 8:18pm
Msg #426149

personal appearance is required for all parties

the requirement to personally appear isn't just a requirement for the notary but also a requirement for the person obtaining the notarization. California, Oregon and Ohio have all reiterated that requirement. a notarization is not legal if the person did not personally appear before a notary. seems pretty clear to me.

maybe, the Calif attny has a lawsuit up his sleeve? I know it doesn't make sense but neither does online notarization, so one can only hope!

http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/customer-alert.htm http://filinginoregon.com/pages/notary/notary_news/index.html

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/9/12 8:41pm
Msg #426158

Nice catch, Ms. Donna. n/m

Reply by Lee/AR on 7/9/12 8:22pm
Msg #426150

One of the many reasons I prefer being anonymous is because of what I'm about to say.

This company and similar ones are pushing the envelope on this VA law and twisting what it says to suit their money-making needs. I am sure they have someone in VA who has just taken their word that 'it's legal--and we'll pay you to do it'. Think about the robo-signers who 'got a job in a bust economy and, while a few may have had questions (I'm sure they didn't last), most just did what the boss said and was paying 'em to do', and thinking--it must be legal (if they thought at all). And, for that matter, all the LOs and Lenders and, and, and who profited greatly during the wild west boom years. We were there; we saw it happen.

As to why XYZ isn't getting into this...imho, they have kept silent with a 'wait & see' attitude while their legal staff is trying to concoct a way to make money on this. Some things never change.

Until something hits the courts--which probably won't happen unless someone makes it happen--
this little snowball is just going to keep rolling downhill and getting bigger & bigger until it becomes
the 800 pound gorilla in the room. (mixed metaphors, but you get the drift...)

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/9/12 9:03pm
Msg #426161

A CA attorney too cheap to hire a mobile notary? OR....none of his office staff, (i.e. his assistant, the paralegal or even his receptionist) aren't commissioned? YIKES is all I can say.....

And to address Donna's point - if the seal on the notarization is a CA seal, then personal appearance between notary and signer is a requirement. With the seal not being from CA but from VA, the laws of the VA seal apply.

Wonder if the VA webscam notary personally knows this attorney? If I remember correctly, something in the VA bill stated the notary must also personally know the doc signer, rather than only rely on ID? Did I understand that correctly?

And another thing...the venue is where the notary AND signer's feet are planted at the time of notarization - usually that's in the same place. So what will the venue be for webscam notarizations? Where the signer's feet are planted or where the notary's feet are planted? Inquiring minds wish to know!!

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 7/9/12 9:22pm
Msg #426173

either way appears illegal. if the signers feet are planted

in California, then California law states the signer must appear in person before notary. If the notary state the signers is signing in Virginia then that is clearly fraudulent.
let the lawsuits begin!
please!

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/9/12 9:28pm
Msg #426175

Re: either way appears illegal. if the signers feet are planted

You're right....I didn't realize that VA webScam notarizations are only if one is in VA or docs pertaining to VA.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 7/10/12 10:11am
Msg #426223

Re: either way appears illegal. if the signers feet are planted

However, there have been persons appointed by one state to perform notarizations in another state for at least a century. In the past the person acting in one state but appointed by another was called a commissioner, and the documents were for use in the appointing state. Recently several states have taken the power that used to be given to commissioners and given it to notaries (or in my state, all "proper officers of this state"). Thus anyone granted power by Vermont to perform a notarial act has the power to perform that act in another state provided the document is connected to real property located in Vermont.

So the only new aspect here is that apparently the electronic notary could be appointed by Virginia, located in Chicago, and performing a notarization for a person located in San Francisco.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/9/12 9:11pm
Msg #426165

Oh, no! This is going to be a nightmare. I hope you

encourage whoever it was to report it. We can't do notarizations in other states, only in VA or for documents that pertain to VA.
This is disgusting!
I emailed the Governor of VA last week with a link to that particular website. I haven't received a response.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 7/9/12 9:15pm
Msg #426169

Re: Oh, no! This is going to be a nightmare. I hope you

Holly crap..thats all I can muster...

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/9/12 9:19pm
Msg #426172

Re: Oh, no! This is going to be a nightmare. I hope you

Marilyn, thanks for clearing that up. The fact that's it's only for documents for use within Virginia makes more sense and REALLY limits the scope of this.

Funny enough, the guy who claims he's doing this to prevent fraud doesn't seem to understand he's doing the exact same thing, only worse.

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/9/12 9:33pm
Msg #426177

Re: Oh, no! This is going to be a nightmare. I hope you

I wonder if this attorney isn't "mystery shopping",per se, this VA notary - to see if she knows and complies with VA laws regarding webScam notarizations.

Also, I sometimes wonder if *I'm* being "mystery shopped".....some of the requests I get at the appt....I'm thinking "Are these folks for REAL?" as I'm looking around for the candid camera...LOL!!!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/9/12 9:42pm
Msg #426178

Lisa, I've felt the same recently...

Lots of little things that don't always add up make me wonder if I, too, and being QC'd somehow. One time, a lady tried to remove my journal's privacy shields and asked, "Do you mind if I take a look at your journal?"

The way she said it sounded almost as is she knew what she was asking. Of course, I just smiled and told her I'd be happy to copy a specific line entry if she gave me the proper request in writing, but, no, the journal is to remain in my control at all times. She just kind of smiled and didn't pursue it. It was just one of those times where something seemed off.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/9/12 9:33pm
Msg #426176

See msg. 425428 from 7-3. The new Handbook is

available for download on the VA Secretary of the Commonwealth website.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/9/12 9:54pm
Msg #426180

Ok, here's the "jurisdiction" portion on the new law

JURISDICTIONELECTRONIC
NOTARIZATION
(§ 47.113,
§ 47.113.1)
Only traditional notaries public who have also been registered as electronic notaries public may
perform electronic notarial acts within the Commonwealth of Virginia
All electronic notarial acts performed by Virginia electronic notaries are deemed to have been
performed within the Commonwealth of Virginia and are governed by Virginia law. This reflects
the reality that electronic documents may not be physically stored in Virginia. In fact, the
networkbased
digital economy has no geographic boundaries and is, therefore, borderless. Thus,
regardless of the physical location of the electronic document, Virginia law governs the
electronic notarial act
Virginia electronic notaries also have limited extraterritorial powers. An electronic notary public
may perform any authorized notarial act outside of the Commonwealth for any writing intended
to be used in the Commonwealth of Virginia or by the United States government. Please note the
remote notarial act is not extraterritorial because it is deemed to have been performed within the
Commonwealth of Virginia at the place where the electronic notary is located.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/9/12 9:57pm
Msg #426181

and this from a state that won't allow gambling! LOL n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/10/12 2:17am
Msg #426207

Re: Ok, here's the "jurisdiction" portion on the new law

I did a modest amount of reading on this issue when it came up last time and concluded that the key words are "intended to be used in the Commonwealth of Virginia or by the United States government." There was also something about a special form of ID (along the concept of the Passport Card for frequent travelers), that required extensive proof of identity to be established in advance.

It was also my impression that the Virginia law is intended to deal with situations where certain employees within the federal government are constantly needing their signatures notarized. Many federal offices are located in Virginia, so that would make some sense to me. But that's a far cry from what is being claimed in the article. BTW, to me that article read more like a press release than an objective news piece. I get the impression that they are intentionally blurring the lines - and I'd bet dollars to donuts that someone is visualizing a pot of gold from this.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/10/12 9:16am
Msg #426220

Exactly. IMO it was never the intent of the VA lawmakers

to open pandora's box & grant VA electronic notaries the power to operate in other states.
There is a lot of illegal activity on the internet. IMO again it's proved difficult to regulate e-commerce.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/10/12 6:04am
Msg #426210

Let's keep on thing in mind about these..they're not

limited to VA notaries

If everyone will recall from the discussion last year, there are several NJ notaries who are on board with this (based upon posts on other sites by self-proclaimed NJ notaries), and one of our colleagues here has PROOF that a NJ notary performed a webcam notarization a year ago. And I'm sure it's not limited to VA and NJ - I'd bet there are many notaries across the country who have been sold that bill of goods and are acting in this capacity.

THAT concerns me more than anything.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/10/12 6:05am
Msg #426211

<grumble>..too early..keep ONE thing in mind.. n/m