Posted by ikando on 7/7/12 10:35am
Msg #425877

More & more lack of ID

I'm requested more frequently to notarize docs for people with expired or no ID. While I feel for them, I have no good suggestions. Case in point-- man in hospital who hadn't been out of his house for several years because of obesity. No current ID. Sorry.

Does anyone have any suggestions how these people can obtain ID? I want to make a reasonable suggestion to state legislators, but not sure what. There are elderly & disabled who could use obtions for life critical docs, but none available.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 7/7/12 10:54am
Msg #425882

Does your state allow for credible witnesses?

That works well here in AZ.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/7/12 10:58am
Msg #425886

I thought the same thing Shoshana...unfortunately

OK allows only one personally known to the notary...

This situation would more than qualify for them too..what a shame.

Reply by Julie/MI on 7/7/12 12:50pm
Msg #425903

"current"is unnecessary and that is the fault of the legislators.

I once had a woman whom was diabetic and blind and we were signing in the hospital because she had a leg amputated. Her drivers license expired in 1977.

There was no doubt that the person before me was the woman on the id a little older but even the signature matched even though she was blind.

I don't see how an expired piece of state issued id makes a person suddenly not themselves.

And please hold off on the "what if" chicken little senarios.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 7/7/12 2:03pm
Msg #425912

I agree with you, Julie. As far as I can see, the only reason DLs need to be renewed every 4 years - in CA at least - is so the state can get renewal fees. Most of the renewals are by mail anyway. So, nobody is going in for vision tests, driving tests, written tests, etc: the kinds of things for which DMV exists (presumably). Yet, CA DMV makes it practically impossible for disabled people to get updated ID anymore. Yet, DMV is the only place where peope can get ID, whether one drives or not.

I'm sure there are all sorts of "what ifs" like you said, but as far as our work is concerned, this is a gigantic PIA.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 7/7/12 2:19pm
Msg #425913

In AZ, licenses are good to age 65! n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/7/12 4:23pm
Msg #425924

<<<As far as I can see, the only reason DLs need to be renewed every 4 years - in CA at least - is so the state can get renewal fees.>>>

The OP mentioned the elderly and disabled - for them, they get a FREE CA state ID card (that lasts for ten years) so there are no renewal fees to be made. They're typically the ones that let their license expire without either renewing it or just getting a state ID card. Many don't know they can get a free CA senior state ID card (age 62 or over) or free state ID, if disabled.

All others with a driver's license (in my experience) either "forgot" to take care of it or just didn't have the time to take care of it. About 3% of signers that I've worked with fall into that category. I recently notarized for a gentleman with an expired ID (was issued within 5 years) who kept repeating, "I've got to take care of this".

It's not impossible to get ID with the CA DMV. Even if it took all day - that's all day once every TEN years! With an appt, I've been in and out of the DMV within 20 minutes. My hubby did not make an appt - took him four hours.

Reply by ikando on 7/7/12 4:07pm
Msg #425921

Julie, the OK SOS told me directly that ID should be current. However, no info available to help someone without access to get current. Rock & hard place for many, unfortunately. That's why I want to try to get legislature involved.

Does any state offer something for these people that I can refer to?

Reply by MikeC/TX on 7/7/12 5:04pm
Msg #425931

With you 100% on this one

I've always believed that the fact your ID has expired does not mean your identity has expired along with it. Whether or not an ID is "current" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether or not you can positively identify someone, as your example shows.

Unfortunately, we're constrained by state law in many cases...

Reply by EastTxNotary on 7/8/12 8:30am
Msg #425977

I agree with the "current" issue as well, within reason of course.

And then..what about the situations where the drivers license is just wrong. Two examples in my 10+ NSA years. One signer took title as a young man by the name of James Smith. When it came time to do his refi, EVERY single item of ID he possessed was in the name of Jimmy Smith. That was a tricky one. I've also had another occasion that the DPS misspelled her name. They used a "y" when the name on the birth certificate (she showed me) used an "i". Title LOVED these! And it happens more often than you would think.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 7/7/12 4:06pm
Msg #425919

A recent answer on the Jeopardy TV show wanted to know which state has the lowest percentage of licensed drivers. It was New York. My guess would be all the people in New York City who use the subway would be lowering the average. Of course, many New Yorkers might have non-driver IDs.

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/7/12 4:06pm
Msg #425920

<<<Case in point-- man in hospital who hadn't been out of his house for several years because of obesity. No current ID. Sorry.>>>

Here is CA, they have DMV field agents who will meet with a person ONLY if the person is bedridden. If they are at all ambulatory...that person needs to make their way to the DMV, via relative, friend or neighbor, preferably with an appt. If they are in a wheelchair (with an appt), the DMV office usually takes them first - this is what one customer told me when she wheeled her mom into the office.

I find that most without current ID, didn't bother to update their ID.

Reply by ikando on 7/7/12 4:13pm
Msg #425923

While that option may be good for people who plan ahead in CA, most people don't think about it til they need it--too late.

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/7/12 4:28pm
Msg #425925

No, they don't plan ahead - they are unaware of the "field agent" option.....their ID is expired and they made the assumption that all was lost since they were disabled or bedridden. They utilize credible witnesses option at the time of notarization, then make arrangements later with the DMV to have a field agent travel to them.

Reply by MikeC/TX on 7/7/12 4:55pm
Msg #425928

How does your state define "acceptable ID"? Some (such as CA) are very strict; others (such as NY) give the notary a ton of leeway.

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/7/12 5:27pm
Msg #425933

The DL SHOULD expire every 4 years

....and a new photo should be required every four years. A few other things change in four years: address changes, physical characteristics change (gain/lose weight), people get married/divorced....sometimes the husband takes the wife's last name. Even though that info is only as current as the day it's put into the DMV computer system, it's still a far cry from a license with 10, 20, or 30 year old info.

And as far as DMV revenue.....$30 every FOUR years? People waste more than that every week! JMHO

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/7/12 7:11pm
Msg #425950

Ugh... kill me now. LOL!!

I just went through SIX MONTHS of nightmares with the DMV over my license renewal because of the photograph. It's no fun when you live an hour away from any of the nearest DMV offices and have to make repeated visits to talk with people who get paid to look at you stupid for a living.

Never, ever would I be willing to do that every 4 years. BTW... my DL is good for 5 years, not 4, always has been.

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/7/12 7:37pm
Msg #425952

Re: Ugh... kill me now. LOL!!

Wow....that's too bad Marian, that you have to go thru that headache for the last six months. Your issue sounds like the exception and not the rule. My DL is good for 5 years too and always has been. To clarify, a 5 year DL is NOT given to everyone. Those that cannot keep a clean record must renew every four years and some more often than that.

And to clarify something else mentioned in someone else's post: Renewing DLs by mail is also only available to those who keep a clean record. That option is NOT available with everyone, with every renewal.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 7/7/12 10:27pm
Msg #425965

Re: The DL SHOULD expire every 4 years

FYI: The field agent program for people who absolutely cannot make it into the office, such as in the example given by the OP, is by and large extinct and has been for years, owing to "budget cuts."

Additionally, I can't even remember the last time I was required to go into DMV to renew. It's always been by mail. (At least 20 years.) I barely recognize myself on my DL photo ... it was taken the last Ice Age. Additionally, I do not have the most sterling driving record.... it's quite embarrassing, in fact. I don't even want to think about the tickets I've got making fancy turns trying to get to a signing in time. Yet, some ticketless drivers I know have been sent letters to appear to renew. I think they do it by lottery.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/7/12 11:06pm
Msg #425970

Re: The DL SHOULD expire every 4 years

I was eligible to renew mine by mail/online, and that's what I'd done. But after a couple of months I still hadn't received my new ID. I called and was told that they needed me to go in for a new photo because I was wearing glasses with my previous photo and that "glasses aren't allowed" anymore as a requirement of the REAL ID act. Well, as I discovered, that's not true. The rule is that we are allowed to wear glasses so long as our iris isn't obscured.

I wear glasses 24/7... I do not look the same without them and I require them to drive. I refused to take them off, and the DMV drones didn't want to put up with my sticking up for myself and explaining the law to them. Finally, they had somebody tell me that the problem is glare or some such. I told them that if the photo has glare, then that's the fault of the photo taker, not me or my glasses (which have an anti-glare coating, btw).

Last month, they gave in and took another photo. I was so sick that day, too. It finally made it past the approval process and I got it..... low and behold there's two big spots of glare on my glasses, worse than my previous picture. There was NO reason for me to have to have a new picture, really.... other than the fact that I've lost a lot of weight, but it was still obviously me.

Oddly enough... I may have a new photo, but they didn't update my weight... *sigh*

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/8/12 1:32pm
Msg #425995

Re: The DL SHOULD expire every 4 years

<<<FYI: The field agent program for people who absolutely cannot make it into the office, such as in the example given by the OP, is by and large extinct and has been for years, owing to "budget cuts." >>>

Not true. While it's not popular....it is not extinct - had a customer tell me about it 6 months ago.

Reply by Larry Adams on 7/8/12 1:43am
Msg #425973

Re: The DL SHOULD expire every 4 years

The problem is that CA does not take a new photo every four years... If you qualify to renew your license by mail, you don't get a new photo. The photo on my CA license is 16 years old... still looks like me, right down to the beard, except the beard is now mostly white instead of auburn/brown. I'm not sure if you get a new photo when you renew your license in person.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/8/12 3:17am
Msg #425975

Re: The DL SHOULD expire every 4 years

I had the same photo for years and renewed by mail, but last time, even though I had a clean record, I had to go in for an eye exam and a new photo. I think age may have something to do with it, as much as I hate to admit it.

BTW, I passed the eye exam, but I hate the new photo! (I guess it's pretty sad when you wish you still looked liked your old DL photo... But the new one really is bad! )

Reply by Susan Fischer on 7/8/12 8:39am
Msg #425981

Hahaha, Janet - so true. Here, new photo and without

glasses! New pic: squinty-eyed old lady trying to focus on *anything*. Rule #1 for hiring new DMV personnel: absolutely no photography experience allowed.

Reply by jnew on 7/8/12 11:33am
Msg #425990

In my state, Wisconsin, there are no statutory requirements for documentation of identity. Our state office recommends two forms of identification with at least one containing a picture and a signature. It is up to the notary to decide if the signing party has been properly identified. I have accepted expired id for general notary work, as long as I have been given a reliable secondary form of identification. Most signing companies/lenders/settlement agents want a current identification for their loan packages, so in those cases I would not be able to accept an expired id.

Reply by Notary1/CO on 7/8/12 12:06pm
Msg #425991

Does OK law prohibit the use of an expired ID?

From FAQs at https://www.sos.ok.gov/notary/info/faqs.aspx

How does a notary public identify a signer?

"A notary public identifies a signer by carefully examining the identification presented and comparing the signature the person has made on the document with the signature on the identification. The notary public may also rely on their personal knowledge of the individual. Proper “ID” should include a photograph and signature, such as a driver’s license or passport. It is also considered sufficient identification if, under oath, a credible witness personally known to the notary public identifies the person."


For bedridden people and patients that are not mobile, the state should provide some reasonable accommodations so that they can obtain a state ID card. Try sending a letter to the head of DMV explaining that lack of ID is causing problems for notaries that are trying to assist citizens in need with their important legal documents. You might also contact the news media or organizations that are advocates for senior citizens or people with disabilities, and let them contact the head of DMV.

You might propose that mobile notaries may become authorized to serve as field agents for DMV, to take digital photos of bedridden patients and submit the digital photos to update DMV records, so they can issue an ID card.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 7/8/12 3:57pm
Msg #426007

Your two excellent suggestions ...

... Notary1, are far too sensible to ever see the light of day in CA!
Additionally, I wonder why the senior citizen/disability lobby hasn't already addressed this ID situation for folks who simply can't get into a DMV office. It's not like it's a new problem or anything.

I'm also amused by the OK direction on how to identify a signer by "carefully" comparing the signature the person uses on the docs with the signature on their ID, turning us into hand-writing analysts. (That's like trying to match a decades old picture to what the signer looks like now.) My signature has changed alot since I got my DL 15-20 years ago. Also, CA law doesn't allow personal knowledge of the signer anymore. The best we can hope for is that the DL and the person in front of us are one and the same.

CA does allow us to use expired ID if it was issued with the past 5 years. However, another poster made the point that many lenders prohibit our using expired IDs, no matter when they were issued.

We can't win!

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 7/8/12 5:41pm
Msg #426014

BTW

Here's part of a recent AP story about people's votes being rejected cos they didn't have ID. If the counties can tell people they can't vote or their vote won't count without ID, surely we notaries can't ID them either ... (?):


<<< When Edward and Mary Weidenbener went to vote in Indiana's primary in May, they didn't realize that state law required them to bring government photo IDs such as a driver's license or passport.

The husband and wife, both approaching 90 years old, had to use a temporary ballot that would be verified later, even though they knew the people working the polling site that day. Unaware that Indiana law obligated them to follow up with the county election board, the Weidenbeners ultimately had their votes rejected — news to them until informed recently by an Associated Press reporter.

Edward Weidenbener, a World War II veteran who had voted for Mitt Romney in the Republican presidential contest, said he was surprised by the rules and the consequences.

"A lot of people don't have a photo ID. They'll be automatically disenfranchised," he said.

As more states put in place strict voter ID rules, an AP review of temporary ballots from Indiana and Georgia, which first adopted the most stringent standards, found that more than 1,200 such votes were tossed during the 2008 general election.

During sparsely attended primaries this year in Georgia, Indiana and Tennessee, the states implementing the toughest laws, hundreds more ballots were blocked.>>>

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/8/12 6:49pm
Msg #426029

Re: BTW

This whole issue of needing an ID to vote illustrates the fact that many people don't own real property or an auto and don't feel the need to have ID. It's at the center of our function, so it's much higher on our radar than it is for most people.

[I'll stop here, so I don't need to switch this to JP. ]