Posted by kcg on 7/21/12 4:12pm
Msg #427589

Provident - What are the odds..

Provident loan yesterday......I explain to BO's that their signature MUST match printed name. So Jane D. Doe signs J D Jones. I stop and show her the very definite written instructions that state how she is to sign. She tells me that is her legal and only signature...it does match the signature on the D/L and she never signs any other way. I explain that Provident is such a stickler about this but she repeats that she signs absolutely everything J D Jones and to sign otherwise would not be her legal signature.

So short of putting her into a half-nelson, how in the blazes do you get someone to change their signature?

They are paying off a Provident loan with this refi so her signature must be on file as is. Knowing Provident, what do you think are the odds I'll hear from title on Monday telling me it is signed incorrectly? If it were any other lender, I wouldn't think twice about it...a person's signature is their signature but with Provident..............?

Reply by Kathy/NJ on 7/21/12 4:38pm
Msg #427593

I think the odds are about 100 to 1!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/21/12 4:43pm
Msg #427594

If docs are drawn as Jane D Doe...and the signer

is signing J D JONES - I don't care WHO title or lender is - that loan is probably coming back. How did you determine that Jane D. Doe and J D Jones are one and the same? Absent solid proof, IMO they are two different people.

As for how to handle it? I'd tell them just as you stated here - she was adamant that she would not sign any other way no matter how much you tried to persuade her otherwise and showed her the written instructions - it was either let her sign what she claimed was her legal signature or it would have been a no-sign.

Good luck

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/21/12 9:14pm
Msg #427612

Don't understand your objection to the

notary's ID method.

"How did you determine that Jane D. Doe and J D Jones are one and the same? Absent solid proof, IMO they are two different people."

OP did not say that he or she did not ID "Jane D. Doe." OP said that Jane D. Doe signs her name J.D. Doe and refused to sign otherwise.

A signature is a signature; not identification; therefore, I do not understand your objection.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/22/12 7:22am
Msg #427628

No, Brenda, OP said Jane D. Doe, as in docs

signs the docs J. D. JONES - my question isn't with the ID - it's with the two completely different names.

Here in FL if the person represented to me that she WAS Jane D. Doe but was now J. D. Jones I could notarize it...not sure other states have that latitude.

Inmy experience with Provident, they won't like it. But, I would have had her sign however she wanted, notarize who I can ID and let the chips fall where they may. That being said, though, if the notary cert were completed in advance, Provident would not allow me to alter the cert to correctly reflect the name of the person I identified. At least it has been MY experience it wasn't allowed. I had a closing pulled from me because I had to alter the cert for just that reason.

JMO

Reply by VT_Syrup on 7/22/12 8:02am
Msg #427629

Re: No, Brenda, OP said Jane D. Doe, as in docs

I wonder if the original poster made a typo, and meant to use the surname Jones throughout? All the mention of it being her one and only signature, and she never signed the other way, doesn't sound like the way one would discuss the case of a person who had changed her name.

Reply by kcg on 7/22/12 9:54am
Msg #427635

Re: It isa typo

Name ID Jane L Doe.....signs J L Doe thoughout. My bad.....she never used any other surname. Thanks for catching that.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/22/12 10:15am
Msg #427638

Aaahh..okay..that makes a world of difference.

Thanks for clarifying

In that case, I would have asked her "does that J you signed say Jane? Is that how you sign Jane?" With an affirmative answer, no further discussion - sign and ship.

Reply by kcg on 7/22/12 10:28am
Msg #427639

Re: Aaahh..okay..that makes a world of difference.

Another point is....they are currently with Provident refi'ing same company. If Provident accepted her signature as J L Doe the first time shouldn't they accept it this time? BO told me that THIS is her legal signature, she never signs any other way and to do so would mean that she was NOT using her legal sig. How do you argue with that?

When title calls and it looks like they probably will all I can tell them is to compare signature on the copy of the D/L....it is clearly signed J L Doe even though name on license says Jane L Doe.

I have completed about 10 Provident loans and never have had an issue but then I can usually get the BO to understand the importance of the requirements....this gal would not use a signature other than the one she always uses.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/22/12 10:31am
Msg #427640

IMO you've done what you can .. I think now it's time

for Provident or title to take it up directly with the borrower - let them hammer out their differences before they involve any other parties (like dragging you into the middle of it again).

Good luck

Reply by HisHughness on 7/22/12 10:57am
Msg #427646

Re: Aaahh..okay..that makes a world of difference.

***to do so would mean that she was NOT using her legal sig***

We have had this discussion several times on NotRot.

I know of NO process in which one acquires a "legal" signature. One can have a usual and customary signature, but that does not render it one's "legal" signature. How would it happen that a signature becomes a "legal" signature? Do you go to court and have your signature declared to be your "legal" signature? Do you file some sort of declaration with the State Bureau of Legal Signatures and Other Miscellaneous Claptrap? What happens if you sign a document with a signature slightly different from your "legal" signature; does that render the document invalid?

One can have a legal name; that happens in any number of ways. Most people are born with one; it's the name on their birth certificate. Women -- and a rare male every now and then -- will get their name changed legally by marriage or divorce. A few will actually petition a court for a name change. However they acquire it, they have a legal <name>. Some people, though, tend to conflate their legal name with their signature, and there simply is no basis in the law for that, as far as I know.

So, my answer when I am confronted with someone who claims to have a "legal" signature is simply to tell them they do not, and to please follow instructions. That's my usual and customary response, not my "legal" answer, and I typically don't get much pushback.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/22/12 10:06am
Msg #427637

Re: No, Brenda, OP said Jane D. Doe, as in docs

No matter what the name, this person may not get a loan, but it is not an ID issue.

A person can sign his or her name any way that he or she chooses. My signature does not look like the name printed on my DL but I am still the person who is named on the DL.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 7/21/12 4:44pm
Msg #427595

Well.... my experience with Provident is that they want CONSISTENCY more than anything else. I've had a couple of Provident loans where borrowers refused to sign the way their name was printed and more or less just initialed, but they initialed the same throughout, and I never heard a work back.
I suspect there are different Provident compliance maniacs in IN as compared to those in CA, tho I don't know, of course.

In any case, when people dig in their heels and refuse to "change" their signature, I usually tell them (in the nicest way possible) they proceed at their own peril. A couple of times, docs have been kicked back, and they had to pay for the redraw and other all-new fees (like mine).

PAW had a form that borrowers filled out when they refused to sign the loan pkg. (so lenders/TCs woud blame it on us). I'm wondering if we should have a similar form for people who won't sign their name the way it's printed? as in: "I refused to follow notary's instructions etc. etc. to sign my name as it's printed on docs." This would probably only get us in more trouble, tho.

Reply by ToniK on 7/21/12 4:49pm
Msg #427596

I have only did ONE Provident loan....NEVER AGAIN!

What I would have done was called from the table, speakerphoned and stated that the BO will not sign as exactly as its printed and she is adamant about signing as J D Doe. Let them determine if she should continue to sign her way or their way.

Also for the person who said how do you determine if they are the same person....its from ID. I do not, will not EVER sign my full name. I only sign with my initials OR using 6 letters. But I am ONE and the same person.

Reply by 101livescan on 7/21/12 4:58pm
Msg #427597

HA! I had one two weeks ago, people were going on vacation to Canada. I said, we need to follow the guidelines EXACTLY.

So, Provident kicks it back because Mrs. Borrower's signature on DOT and on the Signature Name Affidavit don't match EXACTLY.

It must be resigned to match. Now, two people so excited to be leaving on vacation, to the airport in 2 hours, are they upset, you bet!

Good thing they didn't lose their rate lock. He's a fire chief in SB, big time Provident client, they've had three loans with Provident.

It's stupid how stupid the QUALITY CONTROL team at Provident is...

Wasn't THAT different, but none the less, they had to be sticklers, once again.

Reply by Sharon Spence on 7/21/12 5:34pm
Msg #427598

Stupid is right!

Did you get paid to go back, Cheryl?

The only reason people put up with Provident is cos they seem to have the best rates in the business. All the loans I see with them (aout 2-3 a week) are at 3% and headed downward.

BTW: Your signing more or less shows that they aren't so concerned with what they sign (tho they might be) as HOW they sign: Consistency, consistency consistency! That's what I focus on doing their root-canal signings.

Reply by 101livescan on 7/21/12 6:30pm
Msg #427601

Re: Stupid is right!

I will be in the office that day, it's not a major inconvenience to me...I have a volume, not going to nickle and dime them. I know the fire chief well, and since I'm in a high fire rated area, I will do the deed, happily.

Reply by 101livescan on 7/21/12 6:31pm
Msg #427602

Re: Stupid is right!

BEST RATES IN THE BIZ? Quicken might show them up though...

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/21/12 6:42pm
Msg #427604

Glad I'm not a Provident borrower

Because we'd be in the boxing ring!! My signature is illegible and has been for 22 years. If they expect me to sign legibly so they clearly see each name when that would not be my legal signature or the signature on my license - then we'd be battling, they'll lose and I'll take my business elsewhere.

<<<Provident loan yesterday......I explain to BO's that their signature MUST match printed name. So Jane D. Doe signs J D Jones. I stop and show her the very definite written instructions that state how she is to sign. She tells me that is her legal and only signature...it does match the signature on the D/L and she never signs any other way. I explain that Provident is such a stickler about this but she repeats that she signs absolutely everything J D Jones and to sign otherwise would not be her legal signature.>>>

I'm on the borrower's side on this issue.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 7/22/12 6:36am
Msg #427625

Re: Glad I'm not a Provident borrower

I would never express my opinion to a signer, but I don't believe that a person's "customary" signature (the one they sign when someone asks them to sign but doesn't say how) is a "legal signature". There are an infinite variety of "legal signatures", such as John David Jones, J D Jones, J Jones, which might be signed with a ballpoint, a square-tipped dip pen used for calligraphy, an electronic pen, or typed on a keyboard. A legal signature can also consist of clicking on a box on a computer screen that says "sign agreement". The only difference is that if the signature is challenged, it will be easier to prove in court that the signature in question matches the customary signature (or that it does not match, as the case may be); a non-customary signature will be harder to prove either way.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/22/12 5:03pm
Msg #427662

Re: Glad I'm not a Provident borrower

I think this is all a matter of semantics. IMO, when a person says "this is my 'legal' signature", it's most likely that they mean that it's the signature they always use and any other signature that purports to be theirs... isn't. For example, if someone got a hold of one of their checks and signed their name, but it wasn't just the first two initials, then it's easy to tell that it's forged.

I remember years ago hearing that it's wise to sign your name differently (if you have a legible "signature") than how it's printed on your checks. As a result, my checks now only have initials in front on my surname - again, just by way of example.

Reply by parkerc/ME on 7/21/12 6:57pm
Msg #427606

Had one similar recently. Docs in 1st name, MI, last name...borrower signed with initials and last name..hard to catch in his scrawl. But I pointed it out to him and he stated that he NEVER signs the way the docs were written and this was his legal signature. Signature on ID was the same...just first initial and MI and last name. I restated to him, "so you are telling me that this is your legal signature that you use all the time?" He stated yes. I expected Title to call me on this, but no. He did fill out and sign the Signature/AKA affidavit with all variations. Of course, this was not Provident (which I try to avoid!) Cross your fingers that they accept it with the additional variations on the Signature AKA aff. I would not have stopped the signing. A legal signature is a legal signature. Lender can't tell you to change your legal signature. In the case of Provident, if you weren't able to contact Title at the table, I'd just add a note to the top of the return package that the borrower swore that was his legal signature (redundant, since he's swearing on the AKA also) and refused to sign any other way.

Reply by PegiT_MN on 7/21/12 7:06pm
Msg #427610

I get a lot of people who don't want to sign their name.......they would rather use their cute little made up squiggly signature and call it a day. I always say this.......You are vested in title under your legal name of Jane D. Doe and that is how we need to sign the mortgage documents otherwise the county could very likely reject the recording of this document. If you would like to use your cute little made up squiggly signature in the future, we can draw up a quit claim deed and file it with the county changing your vesting to J D Jones. I don't really say that part about the "cute little made up squiggly signature" but you get the jist. I do tell them that they are vested in title as such and that is how they are going to sign their name and if they don't want to sign that way.......then we are not going to be able to complete this signing for their lender. That's just the way it is. I have never had anyone try to argue with me. They just sit there at the table and sign the way I tell them it has to be done.

Reply by Buddy Young on 7/21/12 7:26pm
Msg #427611

It will come back!!!!

I had one where the lady wouldn't sign as typed and I had her call her loan officer and he told her what I told her, It will come back.

Finally got her to sign the way it was typed.

Reply by CJ on 7/21/12 9:30pm
Msg #427614

Provident sent me back.

The signature on the Signature Affidavidt did not look similar to the one on the DOT. The DOT one was loopier. So they had me go back and get a new sig on the signature aff, and I had to fax it back and get an okay before shipping it. Of course I had to print, drive and fax, but the borrower was out of sorts because he had to sign it. He was angry, so he scrawled it, and they rejected the that one too. He needed to make it LOOPIER. They even sent me a copy of the DOT signature for him to copy. So I printed out 5 more sig affs and went back AGAIN. He was so upset and could not understand what the fuss was about. And I was the one doing all the driving. I wanted so badly to take the pen and do it FOR him, since he could not even copy is own signature correctly. I sent back 5 and they liked one of them.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/21/12 10:47pm
Msg #427616

What I would do - and have done - is explain to the borrower that if the signature is legible and clearly looks undersigned to the lender, that there's a good chance that the loan won't fund. If that doesn't do it, I would write out a note detailing what I advised the borrower (as politely as I can), have the borrower confirm that it accurately expresses the situation, then have them sign it. That goes back with the docs.

The one time I can recall having to do that was with a woman with very neat handwriting who refused to include a middle initial (not with Provident). The next day, I was back there again, and we resigned the entire package (with a complete 2nd fee).

However, if the borrower's signature is NOT legible, I just make sure that the way they signed is their signature for the name as typed - and I ask them that specifically. If they say yes, and if it matches their ID, we go with it. I can't recall that ever being an issue, even with Provident, and I've done hundreds for them. But clearly you never know - especially with Provident...

Reply by kcg on 7/22/12 6:11am
Msg #427624

There was nothing wrong with her ID....name said Jane D Jones, she signed her D/L J D Jones. Her signature matched exactly to the one she was using on the docs. If the gov't accepted her signature why wouldn't I?

It was late, no one to call. The one thing I should have done (in retrospect) was put a note to title in with the docs. I sealed them at the table and dropped on the way home. Title won't be open until Monday and they will be receiving the docs that morning so I guess I'll just wait and see. The signature was consistent throughout so perhaps that will soothe the beast.

I had one where the man put his MIl behind the first initial of his first name....John L Jones signed as Jlohn Jones. We went back and forth but that was his signature on D/L....he showed me a few other things he'd signed that way so that was the way it went. T/C called me and I told him to look at first name and he'd see the L. It was accepted.

I will post back if they do call.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/22/12 4:49pm
Msg #427661

This isn't an issue about ID. It's about proving that you properly instructed the borrower on how to sign, but that they refused. With their signature on the note, it's clearly not your fault and if there's a redraw required, the onus is squarely on the borrower and not on you.

One other thing you might try is to send them an email with the details so that they will have a heads up from you before they find it on their own.

Reply by LynnNC on 7/22/12 4:27pm
Msg #427659

I do the same

If the signature is legible, the borrower has to sign as typed. If the signature is a bunch of loops, I let them sign that way.

Reply by ME/NJ on 7/22/12 9:34am
Msg #427631

Did a Provident signing last week and will never do one ever again. I cost me money to complete the loan. Indian couple, used half there copies to get it done right and it was my fault one signature was missing. So now it will cost me 20 bucks to overnight this one page to them. It could of been handled without me, by fax or email, but per Provident instructions I must resolve all issues or funding will not happen.

Now you know why they want a half million for insurance.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 7/22/12 9:43am
Msg #427633

I've done many Provident and have never had to go back 1 time. Guess my borrowers were the "good" ones. I have had to switch out copies a few times though and I get a lump in my throat when I see its a Provident.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/22/12 9:46am
Msg #427634

Half a mil E&O, which probably won't cover missed

signatures or signatures they find to be "different" - standard E&O only covers notarial errors...and I don't think they realize that.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/22/12 11:09am
Msg #427649

I would never participate in coercing a borrower to sign

their name a certain way, Provident or not. I have many borrowers whose signature are a just a squiggle. I ask them if that represents the full name as it's listed on the docs. They're answer is yes, of course, and I accept that. IMO that's the whole point of having a notary who verifies ID & witnesses the signing. There is nothing anywhere that says a signature has to be legible. If I had to worry about Provident accepting or not accepting the witnessed signature I wouldn't be working for them.

Reply by HisHughness on 7/22/12 11:40am
Msg #427650

Agreed

My approach is that if the signature is illegible, that's the way they sign. If it is legible, then they have to sign as the name is printed.

A special subset is signers whose signatures are illegible, but the individual components of the signature are apparent. In other words, it is readly ascertainable if the signature has one, two, three or more components. In such instances, I tell them they can use the squiggle, but it must be apparent that the number of components matches the number of components on the printed signature.

Sometimes in this business, I feel like I'm counting the angels dancing on the head of a pin -- or, to be more precise, on a pinhead of a document processor somewhere.

Reply by LynnNC on 7/22/12 4:30pm
Msg #427660

I handle the signature issue exactly as Hugh does n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/22/12 5:07pm
Msg #427664

Re: Agreed

That's pretty much what I do, as well. If they fall into that special subset, I'll ask them if that is their full signature of the name as typed. If the answer is yes, that's usually all I need to know. Sometimes, though, a follow-up question is in order.

Reply by JinCA on 7/22/12 11:53am
Msg #427651

This is why I will no longer touch Provident Loans.

After I got stiffed on payment for 2, I stopped. Life is too short for the stress they give the borrowers and me!

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 7/22/12 5:40pm
Msg #427668

i remind them of the "Golden Rule" They got the gold, they

make the rules"
with a smile and a chuckle, I tell them:
You only have to sign the way they direct , if you want the loan"
Since they rate is well below what they have now, they usually comply.
If they still refuse, I let them sign as they want, and tel them that I will attach a note that I told them that the lender wants them to sign in a certain, way and that they refused .
That has never failed to work.

Reply by CJ on 7/22/12 11:43pm
Msg #427675

Re: i remind them of the "Golden Rule" They got the gold, they

I like that approach. I will use it for the difficult people.

I say, "Now I have to give you the speech about signing, and I give it to everyone. You must sign the way it's typed."

Then I have them practice their signature. If it is illegible, I go with what Hugh says: correct amount of components. Once I am satisfied with their illegible signature, I say, "If anyone asks, don't say, 'that's my legal signature', but please say 'Yes, it says, John D. Doe'.". Then we practice. I point to the illegible signature: "What does this say?"

"John D. Doe".

Okay. Let's sign.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/23/12 12:57am
Msg #427676

Re: i remind them of the "Golden Rule" They got the gold, they

I use the "Golden Rule" line, too. In fact, maybe I got that from you! (I'm pretty sure I read it on here once a long time ago.) And the "smile and a chuckle..." makes a big difference. Seems to break the ice a little and once they stop and realize that they're probably not going to get a better deal, so they're probably going to sign anyway, most are more willing to do whatever it takes.

Reply by ananotary on 7/23/12 9:21am
Msg #427679

Or "He who has the money has the power" LOL n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 7/23/12 2:34pm
Msg #427726

Thanks for that. I've used is several times when people

want to balk about signing a stack of paperwork. Some will say, "do I have to sign that". My answer--"only if you want the loan". It's never failed to work. Otherwise, I tell them to call their LO. It's not my job to convince them to sign.