Posted by LKT/CA on 7/9/12 10:52pm
Msg #426195

Video/Webcam/Online Notarizing

Someone asked in a thread below - which is disappearing off the screen - for specifics on why many notaries are against online notarizations. For those who have not been around for the prior discussions from over a year ago, here are a few threads on the subject: 368439, 374033, 368377, 368201

In a nutshell, (my personal opinion) some of the issues are: Without physically inspecting the ID for peeled corners or picture over picture, there's no way to tell if an ID on video has been doctored - i.e. photo shopped. Notaries aren't the ID police, but we can see when a ID is **obviously** altered when the ID is IN HAND.

Fraud and identity theft will increase exponentially. When meeting in person, your intuition can alert you that something isn't right about the signer, the docs and/or their intentions - is the signer tense and edgy? Anxious and in a big hurry? Won't make eye contact? While we're required to fulfill a lawful notarial request (docs appear in order and signer has ID and fee, if charged) we can at least take copious notes about the appointment.

Elder abuse will increase exponentially. Evil or released-from-prison family member wants money. Hires actor/actress to wear disguise (wig, fake mustache, etc.) to pose as grandma/grandma. ID is doctored with phony person's picture over real ID info of grandma/grandpa. They are paid to appear on video and sign POA and/or real property docs. Evil/released-from-prison family member wipes out grandma/grandpa's assets.

Someone else in room, but off video may be threatening signer - pointing weapon at them.....or coaching signer as to what to say. If signer is not in notary's presence, there's no way to speak to signer alone if the need arises. Signer on video then unable to tell notary they don't want to sign document.

Scams, identity theft, and fraud are already a battle. Video/online/webcam notarizations will amount to the "nuclear war" of fraud/identity theft. JMNSHO

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/9/12 11:09pm
Msg #426200

Another scenario...

Grandma/grandpa lives alone and is lonely....family calls on phone but rarely visits, may live too far away. So grandma/grandpa befriends and gets "chatty" with the handyman, cleaning person, nurse, gardener, etc. Gives too much personal info. Handyman/housekeeper/nurse/gardener sees dollar signs. Apply the scenario of hiring the actor/actress and you've got the same outcome. Now strangers have wiped out grandma/grandpa's assets and it's easier for them to disappear off the face of the earth than family.

With video/webcam/online notarizations, the notary doesn't know who else is in the room - in the background coaching, whispering, or pointing a weapon at the signer. Nor do they know the ID isn't *obviously* doctored and they cannot speak to the signer privately, if the need arises. There's just no substitute for "personal appearance", asking the signer questions while face-to-face and the ID examined in person - in hand. Again, JMNSHO

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 7/9/12 11:46pm
Msg #426202

thanks for posting the prior threads Lisa, important topic n/m

Reply by Karla/OR on 7/10/12 2:41am
Msg #426209

Lisa, thank you for continuing the posting regarding this subject. I am now onboard with the negative impact it can have.

The only alternative I can see to alleviate the fraud issue is to have the signer go to a financial institute, have someone there validate the ID while you are on camera with the signer and person validating the ID. But at that point, they might as well just seek out a local notary.

Thanks for taking the time to post the info.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/10/12 8:20am
Msg #426214

Concern No. One - That a person who receives a notarization via online may be under the impression that it is acceptable to any recipient. The notarization may be useless for the purpose of the signer.

Second concern is that the fees charged in the past were not the fees set by the states where the people are sitting when they receive their notarizations and were not the fees then set by the states in which the notary sat.

Third concern is that the rules of types of ID equipment and technology that was legislated do not seem to be used. Need to research this further.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/10/12 9:03am
Msg #426217

Answers to my concerns...

Ugh.

http://www.commonwealth.virginia.gov/Notary/eNotary-faq.cfm

Answer to Concern No. 1 -

I have completed an electronic notarization, but I have learned that another state is refusing to accept the electronic notarization. What do I do?

Pursuant to VOC §47.1-11.1, the Secretary of the Commonwealth can attach electronic evidence of the authenticity of the official signature and seal of an electronic notary of the Commonwealth of Virginia. This electronic certificate of authority evidences the authenticity of the official signature and seal of an electronic notary of the Commonwealth of Virginia. The certificate will contain language that conforms to this example:

Certificate of Authority for an Electronic Notarial Act
I, _____________________ (name and title), certify that _____________________ (name of electronic notary), the person named as Electronic Notary Public in the attached or associated electronic document, was commissioned as an Electronic Notary Public for the Commonwealth of Virginia and authorized to act as such at the time of the document's electronic notarization.

To verify this Certificate of Authority for an Electronic Notarial Act, I have included herewith my electronic signature this _____________________ day of _____________________, 20

(Electronic signature and seal of commissioning official)

There may be a fee associated with the issuance of such a certificate of authenticity.


Answer to Concern #3 - At one time, it seemed that there would be adequate safeguards in place for ID.

Now, that has apparently changed.
http://www.commonwealth.virginia.gov/Notary/eNotary-faq.cfm

How do I identify a principal signer in an electronic notary act?
The method of positive identification is generally the same for both paper-based and electronic notarial acts.

Reply by Donna Locke on 7/10/12 10:29am
Msg #426226

YIKES-method of positive I is generally the same

"The method of positive identification is generally the same for both paper-based and electronic notarial acts."

too idiotic for words!

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 7/10/12 10:37am
Msg #426227

where did the D go? that's positive ID:) n/m

Reply by VT_Syrup on 7/10/12 12:11pm
Msg #426235

Re: Answers to my concerns...

There are two different kinds of electronic notarizations in Virginia. There are in-person and video-conference electronic notarizations. For in-person electronic notarizations, the standards for ID would be the same as for paper-based. Also the FAQs that BrendaTx linked to was written before the video-conference notarizations became legal.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/10/12 12:34pm
Msg #426238

That is a relief...why on earth are they still there? n/m

Reply by VT_Syrup on 7/10/12 10:01am
Msg #426222

Re: Video/Webcam/Online Notarizing - one good thing about VA

On the whole I am very concerned with the Virginia law. I must admit however they have one requirement in their law that is better than most states. The requirement is

"D. The notary shall attach the official electronic signature and seal to the electronic notarial certificate of an electronic document in a manner that is capable of independent verification and renders any subsequent changes or modifications to the electronic document evident."

This requirement may be found here:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+47.1-16

Compare the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act, which has been passed by all but a handful of states. Many of those states have no additional laws or rules about how to perform an electronic notarization. The UETA may be found at

http://www.law.upenn.edu/bll/archives/ulc/ecom/ueta_final.pdf

All it has to say about electronic notarization is

"SECTION 11. NOTARIZATION AND ACKNOWLEDGMENT. If a law
requires a signature or record to be notarized, acknowledged, verified, or made
under oath, the requirement is satisfied if the electronic signature of the person
authorized to perform those acts, together with all other information required to be
included by other applicable law, is attached to or logically associated with the
signature or record."

So under UETA a document composed in Microsoft Notepad with the typed signatures of the principal and notary is perfectly valid.