Posted by pat/WA on 7/11/12 12:20pm
Msg #426389
backdating
I know this has been discussed and discussed. The title company lost the mortgage and they want it resigned with the original date. We just said no. Of course, they are insisting that this is not back dating as the document was already signed and notarized and we are just resigning it. The signing service is insisting that they do this all the time.
Please send me a PM if you would like to know the name.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/11/12 12:32pm
Msg #426390
Pat
Have the borrowers acknowledge to you that they signed it - never known a borrower having to put the date it was signed, and the mortgage itself will have the effective date on it.
You can only notarize with the date the borrower is appearing before you and acknowledging that they did indeed sign the document.
Now, if the title company is asking you to date your certificate with the original signing date then that is backdating,
| Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 7/11/12 12:49pm
Msg #426392
Problem is ....
the mortgage is lost, as I understand the OP. So it's not like Pat could take the original signed mortgage to the borrower and have them say, yes, that's my signature and then issue a new ack.
Additionally, I know there are some deeds that do require dates, like Chase, and then there's some loan software that some mortgage brokers use that require the date, too. But that wouldn't apply here, apparently.
Sadly, the SS is probably right, "they do this all the time."
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/11/12 1:03pm
Msg #426394
Re: Problem is ....
No, she would have to take a new document out, but the mortgage would have the effective date printed on it. Borrowers would have to sign it and I haven't seen a mortgage where the borrowers have to add the date of signing. Then they would acknowledge they signed it. Pat would then notarize the signatures for the date she is doing the notarization.
| Reply by pat/WA on 7/11/12 1:08pm
Msg #426396
Re: Problem is ....
It is my understanding that they want a notary acknowledgement dated with the original date
| Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 7/11/12 1:25pm
Msg #426400
Re: Problem is ....
Well, it's one thing to issue a "replacement" ack for one that's "lost" (and yes, that subject has been done to death, here); and quite another to print out a new DOT, have them sign it and issue an ack dated for when they supposedly signed it originally. Yikes!
| Reply by HisHughness on 7/11/12 1:34pm
Msg #426405
Re: Problem is ....
As GG noted, the issue of replacement certifications has been a much-discussed topic here. I don't have a problem doing them; many NSAs do, and some states actually prohibit them by law. She is right, though: You are not talking about a replacement anything. You're talking about an entirely new transaction in all four corners. That means current date.
As has been suggested here many times before, just tell the signing service you will be happy to accomodate. However, you need a signed letter from the secretary of state's notary section saying such a transaction is kopacetic. Tell them if you get that letter, you'll stamp anything, even a document saying Golden Girl is as sweet as fresh-squeezed Florida orange juice.
Well...maybe as sweet as store-bought orange juice. No need to go overboard.
| Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 7/11/12 2:28pm
Msg #426412
Awwwwww
Are you still mad at me, HH, over Cheryl's post? Actually Clem was faaaar meaner!
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/11/12 1:33pm
Msg #426402
Re: Problem is ....
Then "no can do" Pat. That is definitely back dating.
| Reply by Jessica Ward on 7/11/12 2:54pm
Msg #426413
Tell them that virtually everyone wants something impossible
But that's the sticky nature of the impossible.
If they'll lease you the time machines that they've used to complete these documents legally in the past, I'd comply.
If they won't, I'd report them.
| Reply by MW/VA on 7/11/12 4:16pm
Msg #426434
Sylvia is correct. I've done several re-signs on DOT's &
that's what we did. I did not notarize w/the original date, of course, but the date of the re-signing.
As far as I know it recorded just fine.
| Reply by Lee/AR on 7/11/12 1:30pm
Msg #426401
Just curious... did you do the original signing or are they just shopping for an innocent notary?
| Reply by bagger on 7/11/12 3:43pm
Msg #426421
So, they want you to risk your commission and give up a $XX,XXX.00 a year job?
Ask them how much they are willing to risk?
| Reply by CJ on 7/11/12 4:03pm
Msg #426427
When I was a new notary, I understood that I was not allowed to backdate, but I just wanted to understand more about it, so I called a signing service and asked. She said that if something is backdated, the notarization is no good, it's invalid. And EVERYONE gets in trouble: notary, signing service, loan people, title, etc. And the borrower don't have a loan. I don't know if that is true, but that's what she told me.
Later I signed a guy who worked for the DA and his job was to bust notaries. HE said that when a notary commits a criminal notarization, everyone who participated is also busted because they all "conspired" to commit a crime. That would include the borrower. I orignally asked this question because of borrowers who don't have valid ID, but they want me to use their invalid ID anyway. It's not just my job, money and life on the line - they can get in big trouble too.
| Reply by CJ on 7/11/12 4:06pm
Msg #426428
"Other notaries do this all the time."
I remember the first time I heard the guy on the phone begging me to backdate and he said, "But the other notries do this all the time". I thought, "Sounds like some sleezy date trying to talk me into getting into the back seat of the car with him." And when I get in trouble for this, are you going to be there for me? NO! So get one of your "other notaries" to do it.
| Reply by HisHughness on 7/11/12 4:13pm
Msg #426432
***Later I signed a guy who worked for the DA and his job was to bust notaries.***
CJ, you've posted something along this line in the past, as I recall. I think it is, at best, misleading.
I would be willing to stake my law license that there is not a district attorney or county attorney in the entire country who has someone assigned specifically to "bust" notaries. There certainly are DAs who have units that deal with civil issues and white collar crimes, and those units may occasionally may run across a notary who has misbehaved. But that is going to be the extent of it.
The way you phrase this -- and if my aging recollection is correct, that's the same way you phrased it before -- you make it sound as if criminal actions by notaries are so prevalent that DAs are assigned just to police the business. Part of that may be true: Clueless or even felonious notaries may be failing to abide by the law in significant numbers, but the part of it about someone being assigned just to "bust" them is, I believe, clearly erroneous.
| Reply by CJ on 7/11/12 5:23pm
Msg #426445
Bust-a-notary.
Hi Hugh,
I did mention this before. I didn't know exactly how to phrase it. I got the impression that when a notary situation comes up, it goes to his desk. He could have lying about it too.
I was glad to be signing him because I am always full of questions and I always want to learn more. When I saw him, I recently had someone really leaning on me to use invalid ID. Docs had her married name and license had her maiden name and she was appalled that I was insisting on not accepting her ID. She also said, "The other notaires did it and nothing ever happened to them" (Well, bully for them.) I insisted on two witnesses and she was upset that I "didn't believe her", and of course, she didn't want anyone else knowing her business - yada - yada. So I asked this guy about the situation, and I was happy to find out that it's not just the notary's behind on the line, but the borrowers too because "they conspired to commit a felony". Good. Now when borrowers give me grief about following the law, I can mention that THEY could get in big trouble too. That was my only point.
But it would then also follow that if someone asks the notary to commit a crime of backdating, aren't they also "conspiring to commit a crime". I think the request alone is a misdomenor. And if the notary DOES it, doesn't that also make the borrower who signs, knowing that it will be backdated, a co-conspirator? If I were the borrower, I would not sign it.
| Reply by MikeC/TX on 7/11/12 6:34pm
Msg #426454
Re: Bust-a-notary.
"But it would then also follow that if someone asks the notary to commit a crime of backdating, aren't they also "conspiring to commit a crime". I think the request alone is a misdomenor. And if the notary DOES it, doesn't that also make the borrower who signs, knowing that it will be backdated, a co-conspirator?"
Asking someone to commit notary fraud is a crime in CA (not sure whether it's a felony or a misdemeanor), but as far as I know, it is not in any other state.
The whole "conspiring to commit a crime" thing is kind of fuzzy because there has to be some evidence of intent to defraud, and that's not always easy to prove. How do you prove that the borrower was in on it? He may have known it was going to be backdated, but was unaware that there was some kind of fraud going on. The entire "crime" may have just been the result of the TC being obsessive-compulsive and wanting the dates in their files to match up.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/12/12 2:56am
Msg #426495
It's a misdemeanor for the requestor, felony for the notary. n/m
| Reply by MikeC/TX on 7/11/12 6:11pm
Msg #426450
Let me ask you the obvious question - how can they prove that the document was already signed and notarized if they no longer have it?? There may have been SOME mortgage that was signed and notarized, but there's no way of knowing (even if you were the original notary) that it was the same one they want to have signed and notarized now.
Like a lot of others here, I've dealt with "lost" mortgages that had to be signed again. The question of notarization date never came up - it was going to be the date they appeared before me. In most states, as far as I know, there is no requirement that an acknowledgment be taken at the same time the document is signed - the signers just have to appear before a notary to acknowledge that they did in fact sign the document at some point in the past. Maybe it's different in WA; you'll have to consult your state law.
Otherwise, they can backdate the mortgage if they want but your notarization MUST show the date the signers appeared before you. And if they're asking you to provide a notarization without the signers appearing before you, that's even more illegal than asking you to backdate.
|
|
