Posted by notarydi/CA on 7/23/12 11:03pm
Msg #427795

help from the Alabama folks....

have signing on Wednesday here in CA....purchase transaction.....lender in North Carolina....property/closing attorney in Alabama.....not sure what going notary rate in Alabama is....I'm thinking to charge my usual $$$, but don't want to culture shock the folks either.....also, anything unusual about signing Alabama docs? will try and get more details from attorney tomorrow as well....thanks in advance....

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/23/12 11:21pm
Msg #427797

Uhm... you're in California, therefore you need to price your services for California, more specifically your area. Do you know you average expenses and your needed profit margin for an assignment? If not, you need to figure that out now. That's part of being a small business owner. The location of the property really doesn't matter when pricing things out. You have to charge according to your services, not what the going rate is for a notary in Alabama.

Oh, and PLEASE do not just fill out the provided ack certificates because it's going out of state. You need to verify that the specific wording is required for recording first... and I'm pretty sure you'll find it isn't... therefore you need to use CA compliant wording, since that's where the notarizations are taking place.

Reply by notarydi/CA on 7/24/12 12:21am
Msg #427803

uh, I was just curious what going rate in Alabama was so I don't culture shock these folks too much. I do want to charge my usual rate as I am very much aware this is CA and it doesn't really matter where property is ....and, I always attach/staple ACK wtih CA specific verbage when needed. Thanks for your help. Have a good day tomorrow.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 7/24/12 12:13am
Msg #427802

"Culture shock"?!

In case you are under the mistaken impression that Alabama notaries are a bunch of antebellum hayseeds and will take a pan of fried cornpone in trade for a loan signing, as your post implies, I've got news for you. California notaries are by far the lowest paid in the United States of America. That's because we are a dime a dozen, make that a nickel a dozen, and SSs know it. Notaries in the middle of Missouri meth lab country (think:"Winter's Bone") make more than we do.

You gotta get out more.

Reply by notarydi/CA on 7/24/12 12:33am
Msg #427804

Re: "Culture shock"?!

my apologies to all. I meant no disrespect or insult to Alabama notaries. or Southern notaries. Having lived in the South, I have found on ocassion that the cost of living and sometimes fees are less than other parts of the country. Hence, the reason I asked. Again, my apologies. And, depending on who's cookin' it, I'll take a good pan of fried cornpone any day! Have a great day tomorrow!

Reply by notarydi/CA on 7/24/12 12:36am
Msg #427805

Re: "Culture shock"?!

I am sorry I asked........

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/24/12 9:20am
Msg #427826

As a Texas notary from the 'real' south :)

I took no offense at all.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/24/12 4:54am
Msg #427808

Make sure that the attorney is clear that you may be attaching a separate cert to the docs, especially those that will be recorded - that extra page will increase the recording fees and he or title will need to know that so the funds balance out and they don't come up short.

I disagree with Marian here - I do not believe you need to verify recording requirements in order to use the out-of-state ack - your SOS has stated you can use an out-of-state ack providing it does not require you to something illegal, such as certify capacity (it doesn't say it must be required for recording the doc nor does it say you must verify it to be a recording requirement) - IMO that should be sufficient for you to use the AL cert provided.

JMO

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/24/12 5:56am
Msg #427809

Linda, the CA notary must ensure they are completing a compliant out-of-state ack if they choose to complete the out-of-state one. We cannot blindly use other state's ack without care that the wording is compliant. Marian is correct.

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/24/12 6:03am
Msg #427811

Re: help from the Alabama folks....P.S.

Some other states have specific ack wording, others don't. In either case, the CA notary must know this so the notarization is compliant and meets the other state's recording requirements. This is why I personally only complete other state's acks if there's a written request.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/24/12 6:10am
Msg #427813

LKT & Marian -

If the elements are exactly the same in an out-of-state ack, except that maybe the phrases are in different order, must one from Ca. be attached? I am still trying to understand the purpose of this requirement. Usually, laws have a reason and a purpose. I just have not gotten my head around this one yet, except that it helps to sell more XYZ red-bordered acks while costing the rest of the country money.

One reason that I care about this is because I, from a background of being responsible and collecting for the cost of recording, cannot help but believe that it is not in the best interest of the borrower, title, or government when things are in order in the original ack.

The added page costs someone an extra dollar (or perhaps more) at the recording counter. This comes out of title's pocket, because they cannot go back to the borrower for that extra dollar. One dollar is not much, but it adds up and it also causes bookkeeping entries that take up more of a title co. clerk's time...it is an expense that benefits no one and even causes the recording clerk's to add more storage.

As NSAs and notaries we handle packets and documents one at a time. We do not think of the end result of thousands of notaries and clerks handling thousands of packets across the U.S. I question this rule or law as one that should be fixed because it is wasteful.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/24/12 6:11am
Msg #427814

"clerks" not "clerk's" n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 7/24/12 7:59am
Msg #427821

Once again I think CA notaries complicate things based on

fear from their notary laws (and a lot of hype by the NNA).
I do out of state transactions all the time, including CA. I complete the docs as they are sent to me. Thankfully, VA doesn't require the attachment of separate notarial certificates.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/24/12 8:09am
Msg #427823

Re: Once again I think CA notaries complicate things based on

I do not say that our notary sisters (and brothers) complicate things, as they are trying to following instructions--instructions that seem to have been crafted by a certain organization.

After getting a few of these packages back one summer with additional Ca acks attached (rather than the out-of-Texas lender with acks that were almost exactly like Ca's), I requested the authority to swap out to a perfect Ca. Ack to those going out to Ca. for signing. That would bring our bookkeeping and counting back into balance. Fat chance. Rather than reading the perfectly constructed acks, some notaries continued to 'blindly' swap out the certificates....yep, and they had colorful borders around the wording.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/24/12 8:12am
Msg #427824

to clarify - I mean that the certain organization

has a great deal of influence on the writing of guidelines, manuals, and laws. Not that L & M are abiding by the rules of an organization other than the NPA's office.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/24/12 10:41am
Msg #427837

Yes, I know those issues are not up to them. They are

just doing what the law requires them to do.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/24/12 11:37am
Msg #427850

Re: Once again I think CA notaries complicate things based on

For the record... I can't stand those loose certs with colorful borders from you know who. I never liked them. In fact, I kind of roll my eyes whenever I see notaries use them. But that's just a personal problem. I don't like the format.

I, like many of the other notaries here, made my own certificates. Mine are similar, but personalized to me and my business. There's no rule or law that says we need to use prepurchased certificates or stamps. We only have to use the seal manufactured for us... everything else is our own thing, even the journal. Nobody says we have to use any particular journal.... we can write it out by hand in a spiral bound notebook if we wanted to. I don't... but we *could*.

They're handy, sure, but I don't want to use certificates branded by another organization for my work... it just seems tacky to be advertising for other companies. Again, though, just a personal problem.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/24/12 11:18am
Msg #427845

One of the biggest misconceptions out there...

By CA notaries (and others) is that we can just use any 'ole acknowledgment wording if it is bound for out of state because there are words to the effect as long as we aren't certifying anything we shouldn't by CA law, such as capacity. What they miss is that the requirement is TWO-FOLD:

Per our handbooks:

"A notary public may complete a certificate of acknowledgment required in another state or jurisdiction of the United States on documents to be filed in that other state or jurisdiction, provided the form does not require the notary public to determine or certify that the signer holds a particular representative capacity or to make other determinations and certifications not allowed by California law."

Note that is says, "REQUIRED IN ANOTHER STATE..." there at the beginning? That's the part a lot of people miss. The fact is that, even California must (and does by law) accept out of state acknowledgments provided they were executed properly in the location where it happened under that location's laws. So if Texas had statutory wording, California would accept it, no problem, provided the notarization was properly done in Texas.

California law tells us that we have to use our own statutory wording with one exception -- that the state/jurisdiction of the document's destination REQUIRES certain wording to be used for filing and that it doesn't require us to certify anything that we can't by CA law. The fact is, I've not come across a single state that requires certain wording for documents to be filed over that of an out of state notary's properly executed certificate.

I recently, though, came across a FEDERAL document that does this, though. I was going to post about it later, but it seems fitting now. I've done lots of these in the past, but a couple months ago, the Feds changed the form to include very specific wording and instructions that clearly speak to CA notaries - no attachments allowed and their wording is required. I didn't like it, and there wasn't even enough room for my seal, but I obliged them... and took copious note. This is now the ONLY document so far where I have not used CA compliant wording.

It is Form TSP-21-G, a Thrift Savings Plan Loan/Promissory Note. I don't have the time to pull it up at the moment... but if you can find the most recent version of it, you'll see what I mean, especially in the instructions.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/24/12 11:30am
Msg #427847

BTW......

I fully respect that some people interpret the "required in another state" part more loosely than I do. To me, required is just that... REQUIRED by the state. I don't interpret that to mean, "requested by the document preparer because that's what they always use." Let's face it, the vast majority of people preparing documents for notarization have no idea what is or isn't required wording for filing, if there is any. CA doesn't even required wording for filing unless it was notarized in CA, and even then, a majority of clerks don't know to look for proper notarial wording. They just look for a stamp and assume we did our job properly.

If somebody tells me (such as with the federal form's instructions) that no other wording is acceptable and it is required for filing... I'm fine with that unless it asks me to certify something that I can't.

Other than that... if I can't determine that it is REQUIRED, they're going to get CA wording because it's happening in CA.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/24/12 11:44am
Msg #427851

Re: BTW......

Oh, and one more thing... note that is says in the United States??

If your acknowledgment is heading out of the country, you have to use CA wording, no matter what.

In fact, this was a topic covered on the state exam I recently took. Tricky, tricky. I would elaborate more on the specific question, but I'm not sure we're allowed to discuss specifics about the content of the exams. They had a big warning about it on the cover page and we had to sign to it.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 7/24/12 12:06pm
Msg #427857

I'm interested in seeing that form but could not find it on

Google... Do you know where I can find it?

Reply by Priscilla Witman on 7/24/12 12:29pm
Msg #427869

Robert, I looked as well. I don't think it's accessible

unless you're actually applying for a TSP loan or withdrawl. It would be helpful to show an example. I see them so frequently I can picture them.
Again, I called TSP customer service because I started to worry that I could be causing people problems. They told me what I was told previously...as long as the certificate is properly filled out for the participant AND the spouse if married, it would not be a problem. On these particular forms, the spouse signature is on one page, the participant signature on another. If that makes any sense. It's hard to articulate knowing that some have never seen these kinds of forms.
I could stomach the acknowledgement wording. The point is that they leave no room for a regular stamp. Even my tiny Titan would probably be too big.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/24/12 12:59pm
Msg #427877

Re: Robert, I looked as well. I don't think it's accessible

Yes, that's the form! In the past, that's what I've done, too... but I took a closer look because the format seemed different to me, and it had a modified date of May 2012... so it's a newer form. The wording right above both acknowledgments was really clear... said no other acknowledgments were acceptable to notaries were to read the instructions. On the instructions page, it said that the form was being filed with the US Government and the wording was required, that no attachments would be accepted. It was eerily geared to CA notaries to match the wording in our handbooks. That's what gave me pause... it seemed that they were specifically talking to CA notaries.

I wanted to get a copy of the form, but didn't think it was wise given the couples' personal info was all pre-preprinted. So, I recorded the specific form number for reference. I haven't found the form either, which is odd, given that it's a Federal form and those should all be available online.

The area for the seal was just big enough for the 1-inch rectangle... though it did cover the word 'SEAL' -- there was no additional room. I did my best, and the entire seal was visible and reproducible, so it was okay that time, but it took effort. I got to thinking, "what if I only had a round seal?" Round seals are acceptable in CA, and I know a few notaries that only have the round ones. At first I considered being naughty and attaching a loose cert just so I could use my round purple seal instead.... but decided against it.

Federal forms are never designed well. Ever.

Reply by Cam/CA on 7/24/12 2:39pm
Msg #427902

I did one recently too. The area for the stamp is barely

large enough. I managed to stamp it without hitting the word "seal".

Reply by Priscilla Witman on 7/24/12 12:18pm
Msg #427864

About the TSP form...

...and sorry to detract from the OP's original question, but this one is close to home because I get called for these a lot. Wording aside...what in the world do we do when our stamp simply won't fit in the space allowed on the form? If I remember right (and I just did one last weekend), there is only about an inch worth of room, if that. Certainly they don't want the stamp to overlap other wording on the document.
As an aside, I did call and talk to a TSP rep once upon a time to ask about the wording and the space allowed. He said loose certificates are acceptable as long as they are attached and accompany their document, are referenced (like "see attached CA acknowledgement") on their document, and are properly completed. Now I'm really wondering if I got bad information. Hmm. As far as I know, nobody's TSP forms have been rejected (and I see these forms a lot), but I'm not sure if someone would actually call up and say, "Hey, remember that document you notarized for me? Well, it got rejected!"

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/24/12 12:54pm
Msg #427876

A question, Marian ...

It just struck me, and I wondered what you think of this thought - the handbook says "required in another state." Do you think, had the intention been to mean "required BY another State" that it would have been worded thus? It seems to me that the wording as it stands leaves considerable wiggle-room (as the discussion over the years evidences!), and had the intent been to remove doubt - it would've been more specific. What says you?

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/24/12 3:36pm
Msg #427911

Re: A question, Marian ...

I agree with you, Renee. If a state publishes acknowledgment wording for their own notaries, I think it could be interpreted as that being the verbiage that they want, and I'd be OK with that in most cases. However, if that state's info allows for all kinds of different possibilities or includes some kind capacity (explicitly prohibited to us), I'd default to my own certs. And this is only for recordable docs. For all others, I'd stick with my own state's requirements.

As for Brenda's comment about so many CA replacement certs, I think there's another issue there that no one has mentioned here. The Texas certs state that the signer is "personally known to me" to be..., etc. etc. CA has eliminated the option of using personal knowledge as a method of identification. Even before that, I never felt comfortable about including that verbiage to refer to a person whom I just met. So I suspect that will have a lot to do with it. I will always replace a notary certificate with another state's recommended (or requested or supposedly "required") verbiage with one of my own if it states that I personally know the person to be the one named in the certificate. I'm guessing that others may feel the same way about that.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 7/24/12 3:52pm
Msg #427914

Re: A question, Marian ...

Every cert I've ever seen, except the sample in Vermont's notary guide and California's, says something equivalent to "personally known to me or proven by satisfactory evidence to be..."* Since it says "or", if either condition is satisfied, it's OK. But I can understand some notaries want to strike out the part that does not apply, just like they strike out "she" when the signer is a man.

* An exception is really short certs, like this one from the Revised Uniform Law on Notarial acts:

"This record was acknowledged before me on ________ by ____________________"

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/24/12 5:45pm
Msg #427929

Re: A question, Marian ...

"I will always replace a notary certificate with another state's recommended (or requested or supposedly "required") verbiage with one of my own if it states that I personally know the person to be the one named in the certificate. I'm guessing that others may feel the same way about that."

Janet, I would think that we HAVE to do that since personal knowledge is expressly not allowed in CA anymore. I don't think it's just a matter of comfort. Our handbooks tel us that the wording cannot include anything that we're not allowed to determine or certify anything we're not allowed to do in California. I would always replace them, too.

(Of course, the personally known bit still applies to subscribing witnesses, but how often do we have those come up?)

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/24/12 5:55pm
Msg #427930

Re: A question, Marian ...

Renee, that's what I was saying before... I think that is is open to interpretation, I see that... but to me, "in" or "by" it still says "required" -- and I've yet to find any state or entity (aside from the Feds on that one form now) who have expressly stated, "This wording is required and we will not accept anything else." Even if it is "required" we still have an out if the wording supplied asks us to determine or certify something that we can't under CA law (such as representative capacity).

As I said, even CA law provides that properly executed acknowledgments from out of state are acceptable in CA for filing, provided they were executed according to the law where it took place. The statutory wording is meant for CA notaries to cover themselves under CA law where the notarization took place. If there is a legal dispute over the validity of the notarization, the venue is pretty important, just like in court when suing over a contract, for instance. You have to sue in the proper court according to venue.

Reply by linda/ca on 7/25/12 3:29am
Msg #427960

Re: One of the biggest misconceptions out there...

"A notary public may complete a certificate of acknowledgment required in another state or jurisdiction of the United States on documents to be filed in that other state or jurisdiction, provided the form does not require the notary public to determine or certify that the signer holds a particular representative capacity or to make other determinations and certifications not allowed by California law."

Note that is says, "REQUIRED IN ANOTHER STATE..." there at the beginning? That's the part a lot of people miss. The fact is that, even California must (and does by law) accept out of state acknowledgments provided they were executed properly in the location where it happened under that location's laws. So if Texas had statutory wording, California would accept it, no problem, provided the notarization was properly done in Texas.

Reply by linda/ca on 7/25/12 3:54am
Msg #427961

Re: One of the biggest misconceptions out there...

Sorry! Hit "Post" too soon:

"A notary public may complete a certificate of acknowledgment required in another state or jurisdiction of the United States on documents to be filed in that other state or jurisdiction, provided the form does not require the notary public to determine or certify that the signer holds a particular representative capacity or to make other determinations and certifications not allowed by California law."

"Note that is says, "REQUIRED IN ANOTHER STATE..." there at the beginning? That's the part a lot of people miss. The fact is that, even California must (and does by law) accept out of state acknowledgments provided they were executed properly in the location where it happened under that location's laws. So if Texas had statutory wording, California would accept it, no problem, provided the notarization was properly done in Texas. "
...................................................................................................................................................
The key point is, " TO BE FILED IN THAT OTHER STATE." and does not require you to determine capacity. If it is an acknowledgement, I try to use the document supplied by that state as much as possible. I am "not" one of those notaries who automatically attach a California acknowledgment. I try to appease the other state whenever possible. If it determines capacity, I line through that wording and initial. If it says: personally known to me, I line through that part and initial. If it is a Jurat, and dose "not" have the "exact" California correct wording, that's when I always attach a Jurat, as we can only use proper wording for California when using Jurats! Acknowledgements, however, we have a little wiggle room and I am willing to wiggle when I can according to California mandates.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/25/12 6:33am
Msg #427963

Thanks, Linda/ca

*If it determines capacity, I line through that wording and initial. If it says: personally known to me, I line through that part and initial. If it is a Jurat, and dose "not" have the "exact" California correct wording, that's when I always attach a Jurat, as we can only use proper wording for California when using Jurats! Acknowledgements, however, we have a little wiggle room and I am willing to wiggle when I can according to California mandate*

That is my understanding and what I think that I would do if I was in Ca. -- and, I am not!

-Strike what I cannot do,
-maybe add a phrase that is necessary
-always use ca. jurat wording

It is usually the title company that loses when the wrong amount/count is given on the HUD. They cannot easily remove the last page of 21 of 21 or the document looks incomplete. So, they pay increased filing fees when another page is added. I don't think that endears NSAs to the out of CA TC office or quality assurance when it is 100% unnecessary...we should be able to read and use logic so that we can cause as little disruption as possible while staying within our notary rules/laws.

Reply by sst911 on 7/24/12 12:46pm
Msg #427874

I'm a Notary in Alabama. Dont think about the Attorney. Charge what they are willing to pay. The Attorney charged what he wanted too. He did think about anyone else.

Reply by Michelle/AL on 7/24/12 9:00pm
Msg #427944

As an Alabama Notary...

...I'm cracking up reading all the earlier posts. Lots of responses but none from an Alabama notary. Notarydi/CA there's nothing special about AL rules. Loose certs are okay but not preferred (generally speaking). But it should not affect recording. Sorry for the delay in responding.

Reply by Blueink_TN on 7/24/12 9:21pm
Msg #427948

Seen it from both sides. Yes, I closed loans in Ca from 2006 to 2008 and then moved to TN and have been closing loans here ever since. No difference really... just do your job right and get the docs back to title as soon as possible.