Posted by COpink on 5/22/13 2:21pm
Msg #470908

HELP! Had a signing with non-English speaking but with inter

had an interpreter. I called title to see if this was OK and they said yes. My gut tells me that this is against the law for notaries because BO cannot fully understand and I don't know if the interpreter said things correctly. Can you please advise me?

Reply by Bear900/CA on 5/22/13 2:24pm
Msg #470909

que? n/m

Reply by Philip Johnson on 5/22/13 2:28pm
Msg #470911

How did you meet this CO. notary handbook req.?


It is simple to perform the oath/affirmation process
properly. It takes only three basic
steps. The notary must:
1.
Hear the client affirm or swear to the document, to
his/her identity as the
document signer (and rarely, to other facts about
himself or herself that a
document may require. The affirmation in the Notar
y Application [C.R.S. 12-55-
105] is an example of such “other facts” that may h
ave to be sworn/affirmed—the
applicant must state “under penalty of perjury” tha
t he has read the notary law and
will act in accord with it.)

Reply by COpink on 5/22/13 2:29pm
Msg #470912

Called my SOS and they said it absolutely against the law.

Reply by COpink on 5/22/13 2:31pm
Msg #470914

I refuse to send the package in. And I am talking to title now.

Reply by Buddy Young on 5/22/13 3:15pm
Msg #470920

You already completed the signing and broke the law, now you are refusing to send the package in. I would be interested in how this comes out. Let us know.

Reply by COpink on 5/22/13 3:49pm
Msg #470922

Title wants me to send it in but I let them know I had no guarantees that the documents would not be put through to the county and funded. I let them that I was not ok with doing that and they asked me to black through all the documents making them invalid. My notary stamp & signature is being completely blacked through and therefore nothing is being recorded. Title knows a HUGE MISTAKE was made on their end as well as the LO's end. I let them know that this WAS NOT OK as this has potential to effect my entire future. I realize also that a mistake was made on my end as well.

However, I had a feeling this was incorrect and contacted someone to check the law for me while I was still at the signing but never got back to me. I read the Notary Handbook when I first started and knew I COULD NOT sign for non-English speaking but it was unclear about an interpreter. Does anyone have any ideas how I could have handled this any better?

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/22/13 6:50pm
Msg #470940

Great example of why we need to know state notary law cold

I agree with those who said that you've done all you can at this point. (At least I can't think of anything else to suggest.) I know those situations can be very difficult and heartbreaking, because I've had to walk out on some very nice people when I couldn't communicate directly with one of them. Not easy to do, but sadly necessary, in some circumstances.

BTW, thank you for posting because this is a great example of why some of us are always beating the drum about how critically important it is to know all our state's notary law inside and out. We do live and learn, but this fire drill could have been avoided if you'd remembered (or checked before continuing) that use of an interpreter isn't allowed in your state. By posting your story, you've provided a great lesson for others to learn from and maybe saved someone else from going through the same thing - or worse - some day.

So I hope that lots of you will decide to get your hands on a current copy of whatever serves as an official handbook in your state (if there is one - and I mean govt issued, not one from the NNA or whatever other class you may have gone to) and give it another thorough review. (May be a good idea even if you don't think you need to... We can all benefit from a refresher from time to time.)

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/22/13 2:31pm
Msg #470915

What does the Colorado SOS notary guidebook say?

TCs can only instruct you regarding their docs - not notary law. In California, it is illegal to use an interpreter. The notary and the signer must communicate directly. Colorado notary laws are what govern your notarial actions (i.e. use of an interpreter).....NOT the TC.

Reply by COpink on 5/22/13 4:07pm
Msg #470923

Please see last message above before further commenting THX n/m

Reply by Buddy Young on 5/22/13 5:16pm
Msg #470928

Re: You did everything you could to correct it. n/m

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 5/22/13 5:34pm
Msg #470929

When you called to confirm the signing, it should have been obvious they didn't speak English, at which point you should have contacted the hiring party immediately.

If you haven't done so already, you need to print the Notary Handbook and carry it with you at all times.

Conducting the signing with the interpreter and then holding the documents hostage, refusing to send them in or blacking out everything, is somewhat closing the barn door after the cow gets out.

Reply by COpink on 5/22/13 6:01pm
Msg #470930

They never answered the phone when I called to confirm. This is why I wish people would call me back.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 5/22/13 6:24pm
Msg #470934

But you knew as soon as they opened the door. Knowing that they didn't speak English, and that interpreters are not allowed with Colorado notarizations, you should have politely excused yourself by telling them that a Spanish-speaking notary would have to be provided them, and that the loan officer would be in touch with them.

You should never have proceeded with the signing. I hope you aren't planning on getting paid for this signing.

Reply by anotaryinva on 5/22/13 6:44pm
Msg #470938

Where did she say they were Spanish speaking? n/m

Reply by John Tennant on 5/22/13 6:25pm
Msg #470935

COpink surely has had an educational 24 hours that will never be forgotten. How about putting the whips away now?

Reply by anotaryinva on 5/22/13 6:44pm
Msg #470939

Thank you John n/m

Reply by COpink on 5/22/13 8:25pm
Msg #470951

Re: Thank you John

Thank you John!

Reply by COpink on 5/22/13 8:32pm
Msg #470953

I don't come here to get lectured...

but to learn from mistakes that maybe someone else has made and remember not to do that. And to learn tricks of the trade. I appreciate your input and know that a mistake was made that will NEVER be made again. Please don't harshly criticize people for making mistakes because remember, you have probably been there at some point as well.

Reply by Jack/AL on 5/22/13 10:19pm
Msg #470962

Hopefully, many will learn by reading of your situation. n/m

Reply by BobbiCT on 5/23/13 7:03am
Msg #470975

Not to read harsh - YOUR mistake effects many others ...

We don't mean to read harsh and everyone makes mistakes, but in the case of "the biggest financial transaction and debt that the borrowers will probably take on in their lifetime," mortgage promissory notes and deeds, securing your home for a debt, and the sale of these loans on the secondary market, what you see as a "mistake" has financial consequences to other people involved. For your sake, I hope this has a happy ending and the borrowers will be content with the debt and terms that they took on during the life of the loan.

Devil's Advocate: YOU cannot now change your mind and hold the loan documents hostage; you should have stopped immediately when you realized you could not swear in Court that YOU knew the borrowers understood the documents that they were signing and YOU knew the borrowers understood the obligations of an acknowledgment and an oath. If not and borrowers have future regrets or a foreclosure a few years down the road: Lawsuit time! Borrower's attorney claims: NSA supervised the signing for the lender and title insurance company that insured the loan; borrowers did not understand what they were signing and NSA knew it because NSA notarized documents for borrowers without knowing that borrowers did not understand the consequences, interpreter did NOT fully interpret the documents - NSA and interpreter were not attorneys and, therefore, UPL because they "interpreted" legal documents. NSA was paid by lender/title company to "get 'r done" and therefore had a financial interest to make sure the loan documents got signed; regardless of borrowers' unanswered questions by interpreter (let's hope the interpreter was licensed, if required in your state). If all goes well, you can sleep at night.

BECAUSE a signing NSA could not be located in the area and meet the loan deadline, I have worked with English speaking/reading deaf couples; I do not know sign language. WE ALL wrote every question/answer down. The couple kept the written notes with their loan documents. It took longer, but I was comfortable with what we were doing and so were they. Although EXTREMELY angry at their LO who put them in this position: no one told me they were deaf; no one told them I couldn't sign and the LO did not answer his phone during the signing.

Reply by CJ on 5/23/13 1:00pm
Msg #471021

My 2 cents.

First of all, I am so sorry for this mess. I have made mistakes too, and I cry and can't sleep, and think the worst. It is horrible. For me, luckily, everything worked out. But I understand how horrible this is.

When I am at someone's house, and I discover they "can't speak English", I tell them right off that it is illegal for me to use an interpreter. This is why you take the test: so you KNOW these things. Also, many times people argue with me about the law, so I have my notary book handy to show them. Always have your notary book. I have the credible witness part tabbed because that's what people argue with me about the most.

If they insist on an interpreter (or not using proper ID, or whatever else you know to be illegal), you MUST pack up and leave.

Back to the problem. When they don't speak English, I ask them if they can understand me "a little bit". So far, they always say "yes, a little bit". Then we proceed in English, and I explain using the simplest words possible. The numbers on the loan docs are the same in English and Spanish, because they are numbers, so I point to them and say, "loan amount". They say, "yes". That is how we do it.

Even in English, the language loan documents is complicated, and many English-speaking people don't understand the boilerplate. If you had to REALLY explain all the boilerplate and ramifications, I think it would be practicing law. But, you know, we all go over the gist of the documents. Most people who speak English don't read them. But the right or wrong of the documents is in the numbers, and those can be understood without an interpreter. The Note is plain, and title should have reviewed the hud anyway. Plus, what about the RTC? The problem was not that they didn't speak English, the problem was that you used an interpreter. If you can somehow communicate with them without an interpreter, you are okay. If you used gestures, pantomimes, drawings, and simple words, you would still be doing the communicating yourself.

Maybe you could offer to go back and re-explain docs without the interpreter and see if they will stand by their signatures. Maybe you could offer to pay for the other-language notary who has to go back and re-do it. That beats penalties.

Sorry about all of this.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/23/13 5:47pm
Msg #471048

Re: My 2 cents. Be careful...

I think you make some good points here, CJ, but I urge people to use extreme caution when deciding to proceed in a situation where you're not clearly able to communicate both ways with a signer. Sometimes people who don't understand you just say "yes, yes" to everything. As CJ said, that also happens with people for whom English is their first and only language!

BUT if that's not the case, I think a bit of extra care needs to be taken, especially in states like CA, where we are specifically told that we must be able to communicate directly with a signer. When it comes to understanding English, how much is "a little bit"? For example, how many of you non-Spanish speakers know how to say "a little bit" in Spanish (or understand it when someone else says it)? Quite a few, I'd bet. But could you carry on a conversation about other issues? Can your potential signer? Ask them some other questions (e.g. about their family, the weather or whatever) and see what kind of a response they can give you. Can they complete a sentence? There's a wide range of capability between knowing just a few words and being conversant in another language and imo that needs to be probed in this type of a situation for your own protection. Only you can decide where on that range you're comfortable from a liability standpoint, but I suggest it shouldn't be near the low end...

The legal determinant (at least in my state) is not that they fully understand the documents (that's not up to us in any situation), but that we can communicate with the person directly to a sufficient extent that we can confirm their willingness. (IMO, that means more than a "yes" answer on their part). I also believe we have a moral obligation to be able to discern, with at least a minimal level of comfort, that they have a basic understanding of the concept of what they're signing, if not the full details - especially with something like a POA or Deed where they're giving up rights of some sort, or a DOT/Mortgage, and when the document is in a language they can't read and/or don't understand. Otherwise we have no way of knowing what they might have been told about the documents. In theory, at least, they might have been told something that has no connection to a loan or their ownership of the property, etc. Probably unlikely, but if those basics didn't matter, why bother notarizing to begin with?

And that's MY 2 cents...

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 5/23/13 5:40pm
Msg #471047

It was you who asked how you could have handled this any

better

if you don't like what I told you, or you didn't really want to know, then you should never have asked.

I told you what you should have done as a Colorado notary. Bobbi told you what the repercussions could be. It is the borrowers I feel sorry for, especially if they are under the belief that the loan if final.

Being a Colorado notary, your actions reflect on ME.