Posted by GOLDGIRL/CA on 5/18/13 3:15pm
Msg #470430

Jail house rock

I’m wondering about some recent posts about CA notaries "going to jail" for one thing or another. How did all this jail stuff get started? To my knowledge, CA notary code contains no provisions for criminal prosecution of a notary, only civil action. As I understand it, if a bad notary crosses the line into criminal behavoir, then they come under the jurisdicition of criminal codes – the same laws that cover everybody, regardless of one's profession.

For example, it was posted yesterday: (regarding journals) "The (CA) Sec of State has clearly said they expect one line per act... that's what they expect to see. To do otherwise is, IMO, playing with fire, especially if you are willfully doing it, knowing they expect otherwise. Why risk going to jail for willful failure to perform your duty?"

Another CA notary recently posted that, among other things, they tell borrowers during a loan signing: "… and if I make a big enough mistake, I can go to jail.”

Possibly, these remarks were made in jest to grab attention and weren't meant to be taken literally. It’s hard to imagine the state of California sending a notary to the slammer over journal-keeping or a few mistakes at a loan signing.

California jails and prisons are so bursting at the seams with real life criminals charged/convicted with armed robbery, burglary, rape, murder, assault that they are being forced to release many of those imprisoned. And for what? To make room for notaries who fill out their journals “improperly”? Or notaries who muffed a signing? District attorneys and police throughout CA are not investigting nor filing charges for shoplifting, certain home break-ins and other minor crimes because of staff and budget reductions. One can only hope that they would not devote resources, manpower and time to prosecute a notary because he/she didn't put one entry on one line and another entry on another line or whatever.

Are we taking ourselves too seriously?

In any case, recent disciplinary guidelines issued by the SOS clearly show that flawed journal-keeping could lead to suspension or revocation of a commission along with possible civil monetary fines. No mention of jail time. No mention of loan signings.

I think it might be in everybodys’ best interests to reign in the inflammatory "jail" rhetoric. I also think it is irresponsible to even bring up the subject of jail with borrowers at a signing unless the NSA actually knows what he/she is talking about … and maybe not even then.

Reply by ananotary on 5/18/13 3:48pm
Msg #470432

Well said and couldn't agree more. n/m

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/18/13 3:51pm
Msg #470433

Well, the questions of a notary going to jail has to do with violations of penal codes and government codes, i.e. forgery, fraud , perjury as outlined in 2013 notary sample workbook pages 60 thru 65. These are felonies, The only misdemeanors I could fine were for UPL which is a fine BUT could lead up to 1,2,3 or 4 years in the slammer.
If you mess up a loan signing without committing any of the above I think you we live to so another signing. My .02

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 5/18/13 4:11pm
Msg #470435

That's my understanding, too. If a notary is in jail for fraud, they may be sharing a cell with a secretary who embezzled $$ from an employer. However, just as with notaries, there are no criminal codes governing *secretaries,* but there are for embezzlers and those who commit fraud. Misdemeanors appear to be subject only to civil action ... i.e. big fat fines and loss of commission, according to the SOS ... unless somebody decides to prosecute. Then it goes into another realm.

Wonder if we could be the jail house notary?

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/18/13 4:28pm
Msg #470437

Well for felonies the code says the commission must be suspended

Reply by 101livescan on 5/18/13 4:17pm
Msg #470436

Re: Jail house Rock and Societal Trends

So true...can't agree more. That is why so much white collar crime is not prosecuted to the full extent of the law unless it is significant.

There are basic social rules, such as the "golden rule", that we live our day to day lives by, that keep us from dishonoring, hurting or depriving each other. The social norms, morals, and values that define what is right or wrong are lacking in these individuals. As a result, an uninformed public is increasingly falling prey to older, wiser, and technically inclined criminals seeking financial gain at little risk of legal consequences.

There are a number of societal trends having a direct impact on the escalation of white collar crime. Disciplinary action for flawed journal keeping is minimized by the the escalation of these crime events.

Technological advances allow for new types of crimes to be committed.
Aging criminals are now committing frauds against aging victims.
The perceived seriousness of fraud within the justice system is lessened as an emphasis is placed on violent crimes. This is confirmed to me daily by members of the Santa Barbara District Attorney's office.

Budget pressures on organizations and government sectors have resulted in the elimination of public fraud prevention programs.

Human and financial resources of police agencies are insufficient to deal with the escalating volume of fraud-related complaints. They are reticent to chase and to prosecute someone who has bilked a major bank of say $5000. They will go after amounts over $500,000.

I am with you...I'm pretty sure the SOS won't chase after "flawed" journal keeping.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/18/13 4:33pm
Msg #470439

Re: Jail house Rock and Societal Trends - Oakland

Oakland only has one part-time policeman (in the news last week) to investigate home burglaries, they (he) doesn't respond to actual calls for burglaries in progress.

That's why we say if you see a home burglary, call a cab and give that address. Sad indeed.

Reply by 101livescan on 5/18/13 7:00pm
Msg #470448

Re: Jail house Rock and Societal Trends - Oakland

I think I'd be sitting on my porch with an elephant gun and picking off nar do wells who try to break and enter and steal my precious possessions.

Seems like all ya gotta do is call the coroner who will put em in a body bag for proper disposal.

My brother just arrived in Santa Barbara from Boise, ID. He doesn't like to fly because he has a bad leg from a car accident years ago. His car blew up in Idaho, so he took the Greyhound instead. When they stopped in LA, they were all warned to not leave Union Station because the muggers out number the nice people, and you could get hit on the head and be left for dead in the parking lot, no one would notice.


I'm happy to stay home on the weekends and by pass all this excitement. Gangs and the homeless population are an issue every where.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 5/19/13 8:19am
Msg #470476

Re: Jail house Rock and Societal Trends - Oakland

I volunteer as an an EMT in my town and work with our town police, all of whom are EMTs or Emergency Medical Responds, and who respond to all medical calls *if* there is a police officer on duty. We were at an education event at our school, and the cops were discussing what kind of guns they preferred. One of them asked me if I had a gun; they were surprised to learn I ONLY owned ONE rifle. They seemed to think any self-respecting Vermonter ought to have more than that.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/18/13 6:30pm
Msg #470445

Sorry GG...Didn't mean t o high jack your thread! moving on n/m

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 5/18/13 6:52pm
Msg #470446

Hee Hee

Well, you can call the cab driver next time you improperly fill out your journal!!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/18/13 7:10pm
Msg #470449

GG, I find it hard to believe that you can't find any references to criminal punishment. It's all over the handbook. It's never a "guarantee" of jail... but a risk of criminal prosecution, which may include jail or a jail sentence. No matter how you look at it, any kind of criminal prosecution... jail or not... isn't something any of us should be risking.

It doesn't take long to find plenty of references in our handbook. Being convicted of a misdemeanor could mean jail and revocation of your commission. Being convicted of a felony is a guaranteed revocation.

Here are just a few from the handbook:


Page 7: "A notary public is guilty of a misdemeanor if the notary public willfully fails to keep his or her notary public seal under the notary public’s direct and exclusive control or if the notary public willfully surrenders the notary public’s seal to any person not authorized to possess it. (Government Code section 8228.1)"

Page 10: "A notary public is guilty of a misdemeanor if the notary public willfully fails to properly maintain the notary public’s journal. (Government Code section 8228.1)" [also page 37]

Page 10: "Within 30 days from the date the notary public commission is no longer valid, the notary public must deliver all notarial journals, records and papers to the county clerk’s office where the oath is on file. If the notary public willfully fails or refuses to do so, the notary public is guilty of a misdemeanor, and shall be personally liable for damages to any person injured by that action or inaction. (Government Code section 8209)"

Page 33: "(a) A notary public who knowingly and willfully with intent to defraud performs any notarial act in relation to a deed of trust on real property consisting of a single-family residence containing not more than four dwelling units, with knowledge that the deed of trust contains any false statements or is forged, in whole or in part, is guilty of a felony."

Page 35: "(a) If any person shall knowingly destroy, deface, or conceal any records or papers belonging to the office of a notary public, such person shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and be liable in a civil action for damages to any person injured as a result of such destruction, defacing, or concealment."

Page 36: "(a) Any person who solicits, coerces, or in any manner influences a notary public to perform an improper notarial act knowing that act to be an improper notarial act, including any act required of a notary public under Section 8206, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor."


There are several more.... and many notes that indicate that "other remedies" may apply according to the Penal code and could be elevated... for example, perjury is treated as a felony in California per Penal Code 118.

Does that mean that every action *WILL* result in jail or maximum punishment? Of course not... but that's he POTENTIAL. The major point being that if you are caught willfully and knowingly doing any of these things... it's more likely you will be more severely punished.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 5/18/13 7:31pm
Msg #470450

The point is ...

There is a big difference between civil and criminal actions. The CA Handbook and disciplinary guidelines cover *only* civil actions and fines. The SOS does not have authority to throw anybody in jail over journal entries or anything else. It doesn't prosecute; it doesn't pronounce sentences. It can impose big fines and revoke/suspend commissions. Misdemeanors are likely civil, not criminal.
The SOS can, of course, if it is the first to find out about a notary engaging in illegal conduct, refer the case to criminal authorities. At that point, the notary is just like everybody else being investigated and charged with a crime. Therefore it is not necessary to threaten notaries with jail time over things that are not covered in criminal codes. And it's certainly inappropriate to be discussing "jail" with borrowers. Unless you're in cahoots with them over loan fraud. At which case, you are a criminal... not a "notary criminal." There's no such thing.

BTW: Page 36 does not refer to conduct by a notary.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/18/13 7:51pm
Msg #470451

Re: The point is ...

I really don't get the argument, here, GG... it doesn't matter if the SoS can actually punish somebody or not. State law still says that these actions are crimes... and a Notary may be referred to the court system for doing it. What does it matter who, or what court, dispenses the punishment? It's still a law. BTW, page 36 contains 8225... which applies to ANY person... ANY person who "in any manner" influences a a notary to perform an improper act.

A commissioned notary telling another commissioned notary that certain actions are okay, knowing that they aren't, could fall under that.

The part that really gets me is this:

"Misdemeanors are likely civil, not criminal."

Uhm... no. Misdemeanors *are* crimes. Sorry... but it's true.

California Penal Code 19:

"19. Except in cases where a different punishment is prescribed by any law of this state, every offense declared to be a misdemeanor is punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six months, or by fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both."

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/19.html

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/18/13 7:54pm
Msg #470452

BTW....

Need I remind you of a certain SS owner who was convicted of two misdemeanors involving identity theft. Said person had to pay fines, restitution, was sentenced to 90 jays in jail and 3 years probation.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 5/18/13 8:38pm
Msg #470453

But she's not a notary .....

... at least not yet!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/18/13 8:46pm
Msg #470454

That's not the point...

The point is the misdemeanors are CRIMES punishable with fines and/or jail time. The handbook is very clear that some actions are, indeed, misdemeanors, and some can be elevated to felonies depending on the circumstance... such as if it is fraud related to a Deed of Trust.

I'm really not following the logic or the argument here.

Reply by Buddy Young on 5/19/13 12:20am
Msg #470471

Re: You're both right

Although misdemenors are crimes and punishable, GoldGirl's point was: The jails and prisons are so overcrowded that it is highly unlikely that a notary would be prosecuted for something so minor.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/19/13 7:47am
Msg #470475

Re: You're both right Make that three

Not to mention prosecution for UPL (Ca)

Reply by jba/fl on 5/19/13 8:57am
Msg #470480

Perhaps prosecuted, not jail though. It would take

forever to wind its way through the system. There are bigger fish to fry.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/19/13 10:14am
Msg #470488

Bigger fish to fry - yes there are .. but

the CA penal code specifically provides that misdemeanors may incur county jail time.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/19/13 11:56am
Msg #470501

Re: Bigger fish to fry - yes there are .. but

This is NOT written anywhere I know of but usually first time offenders are fined and giving community service on the recommendation of the D.A......The stopped using chain gangs so they gotta get someone to pick up the trash on the freeways.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/19/13 1:30pm
Msg #470510

CA Penal Code 19...it is written n/m

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/19/13 1:51pm
Msg #470512

Re: CA Penal Code 19...it is written

What I was saying is, it's not automatic..it's up to the D.A. It is also unlawful (here and in San Francisco) to spit and urinate (sorry) on the sidewalk here. Ever go up Telegraph Ave. in Berkeley?

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/19/13 3:42pm
Msg #470522

<<<I’m wondering about some recent posts about CA notaries "going to jail" for one thing or another. How did all this jail stuff get started?......Possibly, these remarks were made in jest to grab attention and weren't meant to be taken literally. It’s hard to imagine the state of California sending a notary to the slammer over journal-keeping or a few mistakes at a loan signing.....
California jails and prisons are so bursting at the seams with real life criminals........One can only hope that they would not devote resources, manpower and time to prosecute a notary because he/she didn't put one entry on one line and another entry on another line or whatever...........Are we taking ourselves too seriously?........I think it might be in everybodys’ best interests to reign in the inflammatory "jail" rhetoric.>>>

Have you ever seen the commercial showing a garage shelf jammed with stuff....you can hear the "creeking", then a feather falls on top and the whole thing comes crashing down??? I'd sure hate to have my actions be the "straw that broke the camels back". YOU or I could be that person that is made the example of - for ALL the notaries behind us that did that same thing (whatever that "thing" is). Therefore, I think it IS in everyone's best interest to be reminded that certain bad actions can result in jail time. It's a point that should be belabored.....and belabored often. JMHO

Reply by kathy/ca on 5/19/13 4:37pm
Msg #470530

Why would anyone become an NP if it was as risky as you

make it sound? I cant imagine anyone would ever be prosecuted for making an ERROR on a loan signing, a will or any other document, or not making a certain type of journal entry. Of course fraudulent circumstances are a different story. the world just doesnt work that way regardless of how the SOS handbook makes it sound.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/19/13 5:23pm
Msg #470532

You missed my point, Kathy

Let me explain it another way: Let's say 100 people are speeding on freeway (you and 99 others) and all of you are traveling at 100 miles per hour. The speed limit is 70 so ALL of you are wrong and ALL of you deserve a speeding ticket. Out of all 100 speeders....YOU get pulled over and are ticketed.

My point is: Regarding notary infractions......do YOU want to be in the 1% that is punished and tossed in jail and made the example of? The notary infraction does not have to be colossal......just punished. The risk may be small but it's still there, still punishable, and still worth mentioning.

Reply by kathy/ca on 5/19/13 5:33pm
Msg #470534

I didnt miss your point, I get it but still hard to imagine

an ERROR (not something done illegally or against the law) would be serious to the point of jail time or anything even close to that. LKT, if this is your belief, do you find doing notary work worrisome and if you do, is it worth taking that risk?

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/19/13 7:29pm
Msg #470537

Re: I didnt miss your point, I get it but still hard to imagine

The OP mentioned "improper" journal keeping, which is what was on my mind when I responded to the OP. Improper journal keeping is not an ERROR - it goes against the SOS mandate of what they expect. No, I don't believe there is a risk of jail for errors. There is no risk of jail for the notary that follows the SOS's rules/laws.....and that includes what they *expect*.

Whether or not there's a law regarding the one line entry method - I won't even discuss that. But what I will ask is this (generally speaking, not directed specifically at you, Kathy): If the one line entry method guarantees NO challenges and one entry for all notarizations CAN be challenged.....who needs a LAW to demand that they utilize the record keeping method that guarantees NO challenges??? Why anyone would even argue about whether or not there's a law addressing it is beyond me!!!

(A) Be lazy and be challenged; or (B) Take the time, and NOT be challenged. How ANYONE with more than three marbles picks (A) is mind boggling!!!!!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/19/13 11:29pm
Msg #470545

Here's the real problem I don't get...

Whether one's punishment may or may not include jail time... and we've well established that it COULD... why are you seemingly dismissing requirements because you don't think you'll end up in jail?

Look at it this way... some people will get a speeding ticket and think, oh no big deal, I'll just pay the fine, go to traffic school and it will be dismissed. Okay, that's fine. But if you do it again in a certain amount of time, those options are no longer available. These things go on your driving record.... and may impact your car insurance or even your ability to drive.

It's the cavalier attitude of, "It's no big deal..." that bugs me. Why encourage people to ignore rules and guidelines because you don't think you'll get caught? You are a public official who swore an oath... you KNOW better... or should.

Reply by kathy/ca on 5/20/13 12:37am
Msg #470548

I follow notary law to the letter, be it journal keeping and

everything else. All I was trying to say was unless a NP willingly breaks the law or commits a fradulent offense I dont believe jail time is something that will happen.

Reply by kathy/ca on 5/20/13 1:29pm
Msg #470591

I don't know where you got the idea I have a "cavalier

attitude" or think "its no big deal" or that I "encourage people to ignore rules and guidelines because I dont think I'll get caught" and further more I do know better and thats why I do follow all the notary laws and rules. Get off your soapbox and quite being so high and mighty!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/21/13 2:05am
Msg #470678

I wan't referring to you...

I was referring to several comments in the thread as a whole. If I were referring to you, cathy, I would have said so by name. I wasn't even responding to any of your comments. What make you think that I was?