Posted by Debbie Roberts on 5/14/13 8:00pm
Msg #469959

Notarizing a grant deed in a nursing home

I have been asked to notarize a grant deed in a nursing home. The request came from the grantor's partner (they are not married). The grant deed is to change to joint tenancy. How do I, as a notary public, determine whether the grantor has all his faculties about him? Are there some simple questions I can ask? Any tips?

Reply by Jim/AL on 5/14/13 8:04pm
Msg #469961

Try to make sure they are alone with you and not with other party. Duress and or coercion are a big no no.

Questions like what is the date today or day of week. Who is the President of the US. What is your birthdate. Where are we at etc...

Reply by MrEd_Ca on 5/14/13 8:09pm
Msg #469964

You might want to ask the facilities attending physician if she is mentally competent to sign legal documents i.e. a grant deed. Since she is in a care facility, I would be extra careful in making sure you are satisfied that the signer knows what the document is about.

Reply by sueharke on 5/14/13 11:05pm
Msg #469995

In CA an Omsbudsman may be required to be there or approval the signing in a nursing home.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/15/13 1:52am
Msg #470003

Right, Sue. I believe that is a requirement for someone in a skilled nursing facility in CA.

Reply by MrEd_Ca on 5/15/13 10:28am
Msg #470035

Follow up to my previous post ---

Not to long ago I notarized a POA for a fellow in a local hospital. He seemed mentally fine, totally with-it & aware & knew what the document was all about & was eager to sign it. He fit all the requirements & there was no coercion from the wife.

Next day I get a call from the facilities attending physician asking why I notarized the document. He had been contacted by the patients bank who wanted a note from him saying it was ok, in addition to the POA (they felt his signature on the POA was too different from they're records). The doctor wanted to know why I had notarized his signature on the POA as this fellow was 'well known' at the hospital as being 'way out there' & that the correct route would have been for the family to pursue a conservator-ship. I talked at length with the doctor, explained that the signer fit all the requirements of the Ca. notary statutes, that he seemed totally competent, ect. Thankfully, the doctor felt the person who was granted the POA had his patients best interests at heart.

Since that experience, for all hospital, nursling home, & care facility requests I receive I ask for a note from the doctor that the signer is competent to understand, & sign, legal documents.

The doctor I spoke with made no mention of HIPA or it's requirements &, since I started making this request of family members who call me, my work at these facilities has dropped off to zero. &, after that experience, it is just fine with me.

Reply by KC Bates on 5/14/13 8:12pm
Msg #469967

in my experience with the elderly, they are easily manipulated. personally, I would not notarize a form such as this unless an attorney produced it in as much as an attorney would have done the due diligence already.

good luck.

Reply by jba/fl on 5/14/13 8:42pm
Msg #469970

"an attorney would have done the due diligence already."

Not necessarily - an attorney may have drafted at the request of the family for an infirm relative and the atty. may never have seen nor met the person.

I do a lot of GNW work at nursing homes and hospitals. When I get the request it is usually from a family member. I stress the importance of proper ID, unexpired, or CW as I can use them in FL. I ask if their person is on medication - what kind - does it make them sleepy. When is the best time to come to find them clear-headed. Many times the family has only one set of docs so I let them know to have a second set in case of mistakes so that we can switch out and have clean copies. If it is a POA I may suggest having a couple notarized and always have copies made afterwards....to make sure they have what is needed later on down the line.

I meet with the person whose signature I am notarizing and do a bit of idle chit chat, getting-to-know-you conversation. I ask them if they know what they are signing, why they are signing and who they are giving powers to and whether they are comfortable with that decision. I ask about other family members - how many children, why this one and not another - and I listen a lot and try not to lead them. Many elderly are lonely and just want to talk - I let them to learn what I can to do them justice as well as get signatures.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/14/13 8:22pm
Msg #469969

Are you familiar with the facility?

I ask because I got snookered at the VA Hospital - family member having me go up and notarize a Revocation of POA and new POA - I get to the ward the social worker comes running down the hall - patient had been declared incompetent and they'd already explained this to the family and advised the family to get an attorney. Family tried to do an end-around the system and bring in their own notary.

In nursing homes I don't quiz the people about president and day/date - they lose track of these things there easily - heck I lose track of the day/date here at home! I do have a chat alone with them, idle chitchat - you can judge from that if they're with the program...then ask them if they've read the document, if they know what it is, do they agree with its contents and do they wish to sign it.

With regard to talking to the Doctor? No - HIPAA laws he has an obligation NOT to talk to you.

I also let the people calling me know my fee is <whatever>...and <whatever> is payable even if I don't complete the notarization.

That's how I handle nursing home requests...

JMO

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/14/13 10:42pm
Msg #469993

I would go to the facility one day before the appointment and ask to speak to a social worker or patient advocate specifically for the lady/man in question. I'd introduce myself and state I'm a notary with an appointment to notarize *paperwork* for so-and-so. Their partner such-and-such called me and made the appt.

I then would say something along the lines of: I'm concerned about _________________. I know you cannot violate patient/resident privacy so I won't ask you questions about so-and-so but whatever info you'd like to legally volunteer, **I'm listening.**

You'll hear something nice and endearing: "Oh, so-and-so is a sweet lady/man who the staff has gotten to know and his/her partner has been so loving, devoted, etc., yada, yada, yada"

OR...You'll hear something alarming: "Such-and-such barely visits, rarely spends time with so-and-so...they only show up with papers for so-and-so to sign and after they leave, so-and-so seems relieved they left, yada, yada, yada".

OR...Maybe social worker won't have anything to say. Be sure to speak to the resident ALONE. Follow your intuition and don't notarize if you feel uncomfortable. Just tell the partner lady/man that according to your state notary laws, a doc signer has x number of criteria to meet so that the notarization is compliant and lawful. The signer does NOT meet all of the criteria, therefore, you'll have to adjourn the appt. and they will need to seek legal counsel.

Reply by Jodith/WA on 5/15/13 1:59am
Msg #470004

For starters, I fall back on my EMT training. Is the person oriented to name, place and date. For date, I don't necessarily need them to know the exact date, but they should at least know the time of year and any recent holidays. Also things like what they had for breakfast or lunch. Last, I ask them if they know what the documents are and what they mean and if they want to sign them.

Like someone else said, when someone calls to set up such an appointment, I question them about medications, state of mind and best time of day when the signer is most alert.

Of course, this doesn't just apply to nursing home calls. Any time you are dealing with someone elderly, especially if a spouse or child seems to be leading them along, assure yourself that the signer is competent and knows what they are signing.

Oh, one last thing. Document how you determined they are competent. If you get called into court a year or more later, you likely won't remember what you asked or their replies.

Reply by Ben Frederick on 5/15/13 7:55am
Msg #470023

WOW. If you are going to practice law without a license DO NOT DOCUMENT your crime.

Reply by jba/fl on 5/15/13 11:05am
Msg #470045

How is this practicing law? Am not following your

reasoning. Did I miss something here?

Reply by janCA on 5/15/13 12:28pm
Msg #470063

Re: How is this practicing law? Am not following your

In California, a patient advocate or ombudsman is needed for a patient in a skilled nursing facility for an advance health care directive, not a POA. But I would certainly make sure that patient knew what he/she was signing. Even when the family member states over the phone, oh yes, mom/dad, whoever, is lucid. Many times they are not, and I've had to walk away.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/15/13 1:30pm
Msg #470081

Re: How is this practicing law? Am not following your

Thanks for correcting that, Jan. That occurred to me this morning and you saved me the effort of correcting my post above.

And I agree with Jan re: determining competency. I usually go with something similar to what Jodith said. After a little chit chat, I ask the person if they can tell me what it is that they're signing and why. If they can verbalize something that makes sense, that's a pretty good sign to me. Some folks with dimentia, though, get pretty good at telling people what they think you want to hear and it's very difficult to tell that they're faking you out. (My mother was an expert at this...) So yes or no questions aren't very helpful, imo. I also let whomever set up the appointment in advance know that I'm going to be asking the signer some questions and that it's important they let the person speak for themselves. If you can speak to them alone, that's even better, but not always practical.

Reply by Gary Williamson on 5/16/13 10:32am
Msg #470209

Re: How is this practicing law? Am not following your

Lost of good information here. If you are called to notarize a POA at a hospital or nursing home, how do you get an ombudsman to attend?

Reply by jba/fl on 5/16/13 11:49am
Msg #470219

Re: How is this practicing law? Am not following your

Msg #470063