Posted by Yoli/CA on 5/4/13 4:08pm
Msg #468753

What would you do?

Had signing last night for very nice gentleman from India. This was a redraw due to impounds included initially, which he doesn't want. Confirmation arrived for name of (fictitious) John S. Doe. When he answered my confirmation call, I asked is this John S. Doe and when he replied in the affirmative, I proceed to confirm. Arrive at signing (an hour's drive away), he gives me his driver's license and it reads and is signed by John Don Jones. He explained when he came to US 40 yrs ago, his full name was too long for driver's license. So, he dropped 4th last name, which is how docs are drawn. He says his SS card has full name and taxes are reported under full name. He's purchased numerous properties throughout the 40 years with no problem. In fact, he showed me the notarized docs from the original signing 2 wks ago and another package from a couple of months ago.

As he has valid ID, credible witnesses were not an option.

Here's my question: I have the notary's name info from the notarized package he showed me. Would you contact that notary about her ID'ing procedure? Don't want her to get in trouble down the road. Her profile in the #'s site has her in #1 position and says she's been a member of XYZ since 2003. She's a basic member here. Should I just leave it alone and hope the best for her?

Reply by ananotary on 5/4/13 4:21pm
Msg #468754

I wouldn't call the other notary. What would be the point

of that? For example, he/she may have used credible witnesses. Some notaries are very loose in their interpretation of the use of CW's. Maybe he/she felt they were "satisfied" that the person before them was in fact the person named in the docs.

Either way, it seems completely pointless to call the notary. You should only be concerned with how you proceed. Also- It is good practice to verify ID during confirmation calls (especially with foreign names) to avoid this exact issue. Had you done that you would not have made that trip, right?

Reply by Yoli/CA on 5/4/13 4:55pm
Msg #468758

Re: I wouldn't call the other notary. What would be the point

Yeah, you're right ananotary. Thanks for the nudge. I should've had him pull over (he's a truck driver) and read me what's on his driver's license.

During my confirmation calls I always ask the borrower(s) is this ---(reading full name off of confirmation---? When they affirm they are that person, I introduce myself and let 'em know I'm calling to confirm app't for xx (day) at xx (hour). I then verify signing location. My next step is to ask them if they have valid government-issued photo ID and ask them to have copy of that ID at signing. Finally, I give them my contact info in case of any issue.

Guess I have to be more explicit and plain ask them to read me what appears on their ID. Can honestly say I learn something every day.

Luckily, this was a good hiring company and is paying my full fee due to print, trip and time at table. Was there over 30 minutes while they tried to get someone at TC and it was after 7 pm.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/4/13 5:01pm
Msg #468760

Yoli, you ever seen a "state dept" DL?

I asked because it was present to me last week and I thought, what do they need a DL for? They can do what they want, where they want.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 5/4/13 5:10pm
Msg #468761

Re: Yoli, you ever seen a "state dept" DL?

Nope. Can't say I have.

Reply by ananotary on 5/4/13 5:20pm
Msg #468762

Truck drivers have to pull over at some point. To each his

own, just saying you could have saved yourself a trip but if you are getting full fee anyway, guess it doesn't matter.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/4/13 4:53pm
Msg #468757

Honestly, there is no need to call why n/m

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/4/13 4:56pm
Msg #468759

Re: Honestly, there is no need to call why

Because there is nothing to talk about, your decision. I have met you, talk to you, admire you and WE HAVE NEVER TALKED ABOUT THE JOB!!

Reply by MikeC/TX on 5/4/13 6:39pm
Msg #468765

Maybe I'm just not grasping CA law, but...

... why do you care whether the name on the ID matches the name on the document? You're notarizing his signature, not his right to be named in the document.

He presents you with ID in the name of John Don Jones, and your notarial certificates show that. If the people receiving the documents are expecting John S. Jones, how is that your problem? The entire history of how, why and when he changed his name is way beyond your pay grade; all you can work with is the ID provided.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 5/4/13 6:59pm
Msg #468767

Re: Maybe I'm just not grasping CA law, but...

You're right, Mike. And, I'd be fine with proceeding with that. However, called SS from table, who in turn contacted TC for their input to either notarize using ID name or (their thought) correct name throughout docs. TC wouldn't go with either of those. Rather, TC said 2 (credible) witnesses. Not an option. Signing adjourned.

Thank you all for your input -- including the PM's!

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 5/4/13 7:33pm
Msg #468772

Huh?

I don't even begin to understand this point of view. If you're signing whoever appears before you, then don't even bother looking at the name on the docs. The lender hired Yoli to make sure that John S. Doe is signing their loan docs. They don't want John Don Jones to sign, and it's up to Yoli .. or any SA... to make as sure as possible that John S. Doe is signing. She cannot do that when his ID reads something totally different. And it would definitely be a "problem" when a SA signs just anybody who shows up no matter what the name on the ID ...

The name on the docs is what goes in my notarial certificate because that's the way they signed. (According to the instructions on practically every loan signing I've done: "Borrower must sign exactly as name is printed.")

BTW, this has nothing to do with CA law. It has everything to do with making as sure as possible that the person appearing before you is also the person the lender wants signing the docs. And when the name on the docs introduce a MI ("S") and two more names ("Don Jones") for which the signer has absolutely no ID, it's a total no go. (This example is based on my understanding of the names as Yoli described them).

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/4/13 9:53pm
Msg #468777

THANK YOU, GoldGirl!!!

<<<The lender hired Yoli to make sure that John S. Doe is signing their loan docs. They don't want John Don Jones to sign, and it's up to Yoli .. or any SA... to make as sure as possible that John S. Doe is signing. She cannot do that when his ID reads something totally different. And it would definitely be a "problem" when a SA signs just anybody who shows up no matter what the name on the ID ... >>>

EXACTLY!! Companies requiring their doc to be notarized EXPECT the person NAMED in the doc to be the person who signs it, thus the person identified by the notary. Otherwise, what's the darn point of a notary taking the ID of anything breathing with no thought or care to who is named in the doc? All of this, "I identify the person in front of me and who cares about the name on the paperwork" is a bunch of baloney. JMHO

Reply by Yoli/CA on 5/6/13 1:46am
Msg #468868

Re: THANK YOU, GoldGirl!!!

What about when we notarize with a POA? Signer signs the name on the doc and our cert has the name we ID.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 5/5/13 3:15pm
Msg #468828

Re: Huh? (long response)

My viewpoint on this and why I can agree with MikeC/TX:

When I'm at a signing, I wear two hats -- notary public and loan signing agent. Hiring company hires both capacities.

As a loan signing agent, they're hiring me to present docs to borrower(s) and be sure docs are signed, dated and initialed correctly by borrowers (as printed on docs). As a notary public, they're hiring me to follow California notary law and ID signer(s) as provided by our Handbook and have signer(s) acknowledge or swear/affirm as required.

From our Handbook:
"Foreign Language
A notary public can notarize a signature on a document in a foreign language with which
the notary public is not familiar, since a notary public’s function only relates to the signature
and not the contents of the document.... When notarizing a signature on a document, a notary public must be able to communicate with the customer in order for the signer either to swear to or affirm the contents of the affidavit or to acknowledge the execution of the document." This tells me doc could be in Sanskrit (this is not one of the languages I'm familiar with) and it's okay to proceed provided I can communicate with signer and s/he can acknowledge or swear/affirm as to contents and s/he fulfills ID requirements. Name on signature line could be in Sanskrit and I would have no way of knowing (other than signer telling me) what it says. Again, as a notary, contents of docs are not my concern.

Insofar as ID'ing, from our Handbook:
"Identification
When completing a certificate of acknowledgment or a jurat, a notary public is required
to certify to the identity of the signer of the document. (Civil Code sections 1185(a), 1189,
Government Code section 8202) Identity is established if the notary public is presented with
satisfactory evidence of the signer’s identity. (Civil Code section 1185(a))
Satisfactory Evidence – “Satisfactory Evidence” means the absence of any information,
evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the
individual is not the individual he or she claims to be and (A) paper identification documents
or (B) the oath of a single credible witness or (C) the oaths of two credible witnesses under
penalty of perjury, as specified below:
A. Paper Identification Documents – Identity of the signer can be established by the notary
public’s reasonable reliance on the presentation of any one of the following documents, if the
identification document is current or has been issued within five years (Civil Code section
1185(b)(3) & (4)):
1. An identification card or driver’s license issued by the California Department of Motor
Vehicles;
2. A United States passport;
3. Other California-approved identification card, consisting of any one of the following,
provided that it also contains a photograph, description of the person, signature of the person,
and an identifying number:
(a) A passport issued by a foreign government, provided that it has been stamped by the U.S.
Immigration and Naturalization Service or the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services;
(b) A driver’s license issued by another state or by a Canadian or Mexican public agency
authorized to issue driver’s licenses;
(c) An identification card issued by another state;
(d) A United States military identification card with the required photograph, description of
the person, signature of the person, and an identifying number. (Some military identification
cards do not contain all the required information.);
(e) An inmate identification card issued by the California Department of Corrections and
Rehabilitation, if the inmate is in custody; or
(f) An employee identification card issued by an agency or office of the State of California,
or an agency or office of a city, county, or city and county in California.
Note: The notary public must include in his or her journal the type of identifying document, the
governmental agency issuing the document, the serial or identifying number of the document,
and the date of issue or expiration of the document that was used to establish the identity of
the signer. (Government Code section 8206(a)(2)(D))
B. Oath of a Single Credible Witness – The identity of the signer can be established by
the oath of a single credible witness whom the notary public personally knows. (Civil Code
section 1185(b)(1)) The notary public must establish the identity of the credible witness by
the presentation of paper identification documents as set forth above. Under oath, the credible
witness must swear or affirm that each of the following is true (Civil Code section 1185(b)(1)
(A)(i)-(v)):
1. The individual appearing before the notary public as the signer of the document is the
person named in the document;
2. The credible witness personally knows the signer;
3. The credible witness reasonably believes that the circumstances of the signer are
such that it would be very difficult or impossible for the signer to obtain another form of
identification;
4. The signer does not possess any of the identification documents authorized by law to
establish the signer’s identity; and
5. The credible witness does not have a financial interest and is not named in the document
signed.
Note: The single credible witness must sign the notary public’s journal or the notary public
must indicate in his or her journal the type of identifying document, the identifying number of
the document, and the date of issuance or expiration of the document presented by the witness
to establish the identity of the witness. (Government Code section 8206(a)(2)(D))
C. Oaths of Two Credible Witnesses – The identity of the signer can be established by the
oaths of two credible witnesses whom the notary public does not personally know. (Civil Code
section 1185(b)(2)) The notary public first must establish the identities of the two credible
witnesses by the presentation of paper identification documents as listed above. Under oath,
the credible witnesses must swear or affirm under penalty of perjury to each of the things sworn
to or affirmed by a single credible witness, as set forth above. (Civil Code sections 1185(b)(2)
and 1185(b)(1)(A)(i)-(v))
Note: The credible witnesses must sign the notary public’s journal and the notary public must
indicate in his or her journal the type of identifying documents, the identifying numbers of the
documents, and the dates of issuance or expiration of the documents presented by the witnesses
to establish their identities. (Government Code section 8206(a)(2)(E))"
Notice under Satisfactory Evidence it says, "... claims to be <<and>> ... " (I added emphasis) - not "or."

If I am presented with a document with a signature line for John James Wayne and Mr. Signer tells me he is John James Wayne (claims to be). But, if his unexpired driver's license shows a printed name of John Dale Evans and is signed as John Dale Evans and other description matches person before me, I feel comfortable in declining that ID for John James Wayne. As the contents of that document are not my concern, I can, however, notarize that document for John Dale Evans.

All the above explains my notary hat and actions. I am commissioned as a notary public. I am not commissioned as a loan signing agent. In this particular situation, my LSA hat conflicted with my NP hat. That is why I called SS from table for their decision (after they called TC). When the only solution they could offer was credible witnesses - under Identification 4. above, that was not a viable option - my decision was to adjourn signing. I'm comfortable with that decision.

My question was: given all the above, would anyone consider contacting the original notary and ask how she ID'd the individual. After careful consideration of everyone's input, I have opted to not contact that notary.

Reply by John Tennant on 5/5/13 3:57pm
Msg #468829

Yoli, please educate me.

"If I am presented with a document with a signature line for John James Wayne and Mr. Signer tells me he is John James Wayne (claims to be). But, if his unexpired driver's license shows a printed name of John Dale Evans and is signed as John Dale Evans and other description matches person before me, I feel comfortable in declining that ID for John James Wayne. As the contents of that document are not my concern, I can, however, notarize that document for John Dale Evans."

It has been my experience that the instructions for the documents require that "the signature must be exactly as typed", or verbiage that is similar.

That being the case, if the signature line is John James Wayne, how can you notarize those documents when they are signed by John Dale Evans?

Reply by Yoli/CA on 5/5/13 5:04pm
Msg #468831

Re: Yoli, please educate me.

Exactly, John! That's where the NP hat and LSA hat clashed.

As a Notary Public and by notarizing, I am certifying that I ID'd the person before me pursuant to California notary law. That person before me has proper ID, with full description and signature, for John Dale Evans. That ID's description matches the person before me. That person acknowledged signing that doc or swore/affirmed as to the truthfulness of the contents of the docs. After ID'ing, the contents of docs are not my concern, "...since a notary public’s function only relates to the signature and not the contents of the document...."

As a Loan Signing Agent, I can present the docs, instruct person to sign, per TC's instructions, as name appears on docs (John James Wayne), witness him sign, date and initial as instructed.

However, one key element is missing for notarizing the name on docs - proper ID as prescribed by Civil Code 1185.

If I proceed as the LSA example above and my notary certs state John James Wayne (name on docs) appeared before. That is a false statement and I am subject to Penal Code 115.5:

"§ 115.5. Filing false or forged documents relating to single-family residences; punishment; false statement to notary public (a) Every person who files any false or forged document or instrument with the county recorder which affects title to, places an encumbrance on, or places an interest secured by a mortgage or deed of trust on, real property consisting of a single-family residence containing not more than four dwelling units, with knowledge that the document is false or forged, is punishable, in addition to any other punishment, by a fine not exceeding seventy-five thousand dollars ($75,000)."

JMHO

Reply by John Tennant on 5/5/13 5:19pm
Msg #468832

Re: Yoli, please educate me.

Yoli, I have never known a lending institution or title company that would accept the name John Dale Evans on a signature line with the name John James Wayne under it. If John Dale Evans signed John James Wayne, without proof that he is actually John James Wayne, it could be construed as a forgery under the very code you are using as an example (Penal Code 115.5).

Would you really go forward with that type of notarization? If it went to court, would you really swear that John Dale Evans is really John James Wayne? I absolutely would not place myself in that position.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 5/5/13 7:00pm
Msg #468840

Re: Yoli, please educate me.

No, John. You misunderstand. Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Please keep in mind this is only a possible scenario.

All I'm saying is:

1. Docs say John James Wayne;
2. Instructions say borrower to sign as name appears;
3. ID says John Dale Evans;
4. CA notary law says I can only notarize with proper ID;
5. Borrower follows instructions and signs as name appears on docs (John James Wayne);
6. My notary certs say John Dale Evans appeared before me and acknowledged signing doc;
7. CA notary handbook says contents of doc is not my concern just the signature.

Conditions were met. Instructions were followed. You're right. Lender/TC probably wouldn't accept if printed name and signed name differed. But, what about if printed name and signed name were the same? What wouldn't match is the name on the notarial cert. That's up to lender/TC.

My notary cert on that doc does not legalize a doc. It simply means I properly ID'd the signing party and he acknowledged signing or swore/affirmed to the truthfulness of contents. Does not mean I agree with it. In essence, I could notarize a deal between drug lords provided they had proper ID. Doesn't make the deal legal nor does it mean I agree with or condone such activity. It's up to other parties to deal with the legalities.

This has just been a depiction on how different folks deal with instructions differently. I know of at least 1 notary who conducted a signing, had all docs signed as name appeared on docs, notarial cert had name same as docs. Yet, I also know there exists no approved ID in that name and credible witnesses were not used.

To answer your question, no, I would not go forward with that type of notarization. And, I didn't.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/4/13 9:59pm
Msg #468778

Re: Maybe I'm just not grasping CA law, but...

<<<He presents you with ID in the name of John Don Jones, and your notarial certificates show that. If the people receiving the documents are expecting John S. Jones, how is that your problem?>>>

That's the whole point of notarizing. Otherwise, the lady down the street (whatever her name is) can have her signature notarized on paperwork with MY name under the signature line. According to some of the notaries on this board, she just presents ID and signs HER name and HER name is on the notarial cert - who cares that MY name is typed under the signature line. The problem IS.....when I turn in said paperwork, it will be rejected with a capital R.

Reply by John Tennant on 5/4/13 10:10pm
Msg #468781

Mike, you are scary.

You do not care who the signor is in relation to the documents just as long as the signor's name is on your notarized certificates??? Glad you are in Texas and not available to notarize my docs. JMHO

Reply by kathy/ca on 5/5/13 10:30am
Msg #468808

John T, I thought exactly the same thing you did when I read

Mikes post!!!!! OMG, what is the point of notarizing, showing ID or anything else to do with being a NP with that kind of thinking?????

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 5/5/13 10:38am
Msg #468809

Mike's from NY. They do things differently there.

My firend who was a NY notary for many years told me that when their commission expires, they are allowed to cut out the year on their stamp and just write in the new expiration year.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/5/13 12:40pm
Msg #468818

Re: Mike's from NY. They do things differently there.

<<<My firend who was a NY notary for many years told me that when their commission expires, they are allowed to cut out the year on their stamp and just write in the new expiration year.>>>

What happens when a commission (stamp) expires has nothing to do with the fact that a company/entity/organization **expects** the person named in the doc to be the person who signs the doc and thus that person was identified by the notary. That concept applies to notaries in ALL 50 states.

Reply by MikeC/TX on 5/5/13 6:25pm
Msg #468838

Re: Mike, you are scary.

Sorry I frightened you.

Answer one simple question - what are you notarizing, the signature of the person appearing before you, or the contents of the document they are signing?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/5/13 7:19pm
Msg #468842

In FL it makes all the difference in the world..

Per our manual:

From Subsection 117.05(5) of the Florida Statutes

"A notary public may not notarize a signature on a document unless he or she personally knows, or has satisfactory evidence, that the person whose signature is to be notarized is the individual who is described in and who is executing the instrument."

So if John Doe Jones is named in the doc, John Doe Jones better sign it and show ID - if John Wayne Jones shows up, it's a no go.

Reply by John Tennant on 5/5/13 9:20pm
Msg #468855

Re: In FL it makes all the difference in the world..

You are one million percent correct Linda. And that applies to California as well. I posted "Yoli, educate me earlier." Got a similar response as Mike has stated.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/5/13 8:30pm
Msg #468851

One simple answer

<<<Answer one simple question - what are you notarizing, the signature of the person appearing before you, or the contents of the document they are signing?>>>

Notaries are notarizing the signature of the person **described in the instrument** - he/she is <better be> the person appearing before the Notary. That's the who point of notarizing and what the entity drafting their document **expects**.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/5/13 8:30pm
Msg #468852

s/b whole point n/m

Reply by John Tennant on 5/5/13 10:00pm
Msg #468861

Re: Mike, you are scary.

I am notarizing the signature of the person appearing before me on an acknowledgement or jurat. In California the wording of the acknowledgement and jurat is very specific relating individual named in the document, therefore, the ID must match the name on the document. The exception would only be if an AKA was provided in the document package.

Reply by Clem/CA on 5/4/13 7:21pm
Msg #468770

I am sorry but I cannot let Mr. Jones Sign Mr. Does's docs. Dead at the start. call SS and get your fee. They are vary rarley cancelled, they are almost always postponed. 2X pay is OK! Not your problem. You did your job.

Reply by Clem/CA on 5/4/13 7:22pm
Msg #468771

Another case of the LO not getting ID before the signing......

Reply by MonicaFL on 5/4/13 10:08pm
Msg #468779

This is an interesting post - I have one for you. My eye doctor is from India. He had a really long name which appears on MOST of his credentials in his office. However, some of them have a "shorter" name. I asked him why the difference and his answer was "The longer name you see on some of my certificates is my given name but when I became an American Citizen I was asked if I wanted to continue to use my given name or change it. I changed it (making it shorter) so people could actually pronouce it." That was a first. Wonder what kind of ID he would have if he were to refi his house?

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 5/4/13 10:35pm
Msg #468783

I've run into this exact situation, Monica.

Mr. and Mrs. Borrower bought several properties over the years in her shortened Americanized name for which she had ID. I did three of those refis over a period of a couple of years. Then, along comes another refi for a property which they had bought in her pre-citizenship name and for which she no longer had ID.

So, everybody (TC, LO, borrowers, etc) was super ticked that I wouldn't notarize. It wasn't so much that she didn't have ID in that name (which would have been enough to send me packing anyway); the major point being: the name on the docs wasn't even her name anymore! She had legally changed it!

Anyway, after much behind-the-scenes turmoil, several days later docs were redrawn in her new, legal name with a WTTA. Sounds like the same possible scenario with your doctor.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 5/5/13 10:02am
Msg #468802

Re: I've run into this exact situation, Monica.

In Monica/FL's case, it seems as if the long and short name are pronounced the same by those familiar with Indian names, but non-Indians don't know how to pronounce the long version. In some jurisdictions and situations, names that sound the same are considered the same name. Remember that when our country was founded, spelling was not yet standardized, so a person's true name was the spoken form, and the written form was just an afterthought. There is nothing in any notary manual I've seen that says one way or the other whether names that sound the same can be considered to match, even if spelled differently.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/5/13 8:07am
Msg #468793

When you get your citizenship you have the option to choose a different name. If you change your name you can take your certificate of citizenship to the DMV and get your drivers license in your new name. I used my certificate of citizenship to get a new drivers license.

Reply by jba/fl on 5/5/13 9:40pm
Msg #468859

That is what my husband did as well - he changed his name

too, then went to DMV for new ID along with his paperwork.

Had he previously bought real property in his original name, he would have had to do a quit claim deed. He has his old id to show the name changes, but it has never been an issue.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/4/13 10:09pm
Msg #468780

<<< He explained when he came to US 40 yrs ago, his full name was too long for driver's license.>>>

It would be a no-go for me. The beauty of handling 90% of GNW means I see many, many, many different situations/people/excuses. With that said, I've also seen licenses with 4 names (and long names) so personally, I wouldn't buy his excuse.

To answer your question: I would leave it alone. I wouldn't contact the other notary as she could use the rationale that she was "satisfied" that the person she ID'd and the person named in the documents are the same person. To me, John S. Doe and John Don Jones are two different people.

Reply by snowflake/PA on 5/5/13 11:17am
Msg #468816

No need to contact the other notary. However, I had a similar refi last Names on ID didn't nearly match the docs. Called title, faxed ids to title from the bank and they said no can do. They had to do a redraw, but with AKA. I was asked if I would be comfortable notarizing since they were making the name change, and I was. I just don't understand how these folks even purchased their home. Said they never had this problem before.

Apparently, some notaries don't care about id. Can't believe the LO never asked for id. Just took everything from the chain of title.

Mr. Borrower name was, fictitious here of course, Ramon Apple Public Jones, while docs were Raymond A. Public - no last name. I was just glad to finally get these folks closed.

Reply by NS35/CA on 5/6/13 9:39am
Msg #468879

I thought the lenders have taken care of that situation with the form named AKA OR NAME/SIGNATURE AFFIDAVIT!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/6/13 5:58pm
Msg #468965

They did...but that only helps them...it doesn't do

a thing for the notary involved. AKA or Name/Signature Affidavits are not usable as ID for the signer.