Posted by Ninna Mantooth-Lopez on 12/10/03 9:44am
Msg #399

States requiring witnesses to dot/mtg....

In Louisiana, two witnesses are required to witness the mtg... and the notary cannot be one of the witnesses. It's a struggle almost each and every time for the borrowers to get two witnesses. Oftentimes, they can get one, but not two. I've had discussions with the group of Louisiana notaries that I am a member of and they are having the same problem. In the past, I've offered to bring a witness...usually my mother, who is retired. I've started asking for an additional fee for this service (from my customer, not the borrower) and so far, I've had no complaints. My question is to other states who require witnesses... do you run across this problem?... and if so, do you charge?... and if so, what do you charge? We, in Louisiana, would like to bring some consistancy in pricing to this service.

Reply by Integra_Sign on 12/11/03 1:58am
Msg #400

Nina,
It appears that you have a situation that is probably unique to Louisiana! It's interesting that you charge, or are able to charge an additional fee. To whom does the extra fee benefit? Are you having to pay your witnesses to be witnesses? If so, how would they be considered to be disinterested? Just a question is all, I'm curious to know.

Additionally, you are a Notary Public in the state of Louisiana. Rather than to gain what you call "constancy," why not simply comply with the laws within your state, opposed to even-keels across the board. What works for Louisiana will not work for North Carolina and vice-versa. You feel me?

General guides, advice, or recommendations by the NNA is a good thing. It establishes a framework by which to proceed in the practice of being a Signing Agent, but specifics belong to the individual states. No one else can impede their sovereignty.

I believe I do understand what you're asking, but I also believe you're seeking or asking amyss. Everything doesn't have to be equal. In North Carolina, if you witness, you can't notarize, and vice versa. I'm cool with that, see my point? Work within the laws and guidelines of your state, to make them work for you!

Best success.

Reply by Ninna Mantooth-Lopez on 12/11/03 7:08am
Msg #401

I don't think it is unique to Louisiana; however, I could be mistaken. The benefit is given to the witness I have to call on to come with me. Why should I provide a benefit and service to facilitate the signing and they not be paid? The signing service, title company, etc., is always put on notice up-front that if I have to provide this service, there will be an additional charge. The fee would be paid along with my signing fee and I would then give the witness fee to my witness. I am not a member of NNA and do not wish to be.... that's all I'll say about that. I do comply with the laws in my state... and fees charged here are up to the signer. It was simply a question... If that is not the case in other states, then... well, I guess no one will respond... feel "me"? :~)

Reply by Tina_MA on 12/11/03 1:30pm
Msg #405

Ninna, I have seen posts regarding payment of witnesses in the past on other boards. Most charge approximately $25.00 to $35.00 to provide one witness. I know I've seen some notaries that will bring their spouse or significant other along and pay them to be the witness.

Quite frankly, unless the witness is a friend of the borrowers, who would want to be bothered giving their time to a stranger to act as a witness? -- not too many people I'd imagine.

Reply by Integra_Sign on 12/11/03 2:21pm
Msg #408

I would ask that we please, please be careful here! And understand that a "paid" witness for other than governmental/legal purposes may be an indicator of fraudulent activity.

It is true that a witness is for the most part; someone, who knows something, seen something, or heard something that originated from a particular source, pertaining to a particular thing, at a specific time or place. And as an act of "their own free-will, volition, and accord" do they give testimony or attest to the same. But when you put the dollar sign behind it; when the witness is motivated by money to be a witness, how disinterested were they really, and how true is their witness of the events? How much is that testimony really worth should something goe awry, and that witness is called, having the facts and circumstances of their witness explored? A good prosecutor will eat that kind of witness alive, and make them wish that they had stayed at home!

On the other hand, a witness that is not induced or motivated by money to give their testimony or witness is usually more credible, because they have essentially have no axe to grind, and no interest of gain.

Again, here is an area that caution and care needs to be exercised when "obtaining" witnesses. It may give you a blackened-eye. Some persons, depending upon their economics will do anything, say anything, sign anything, for a buck! And this "can" emit fumes of possible fraudulent activity.

Just an opinion from an individual perspective.

Reply by Ninna Mantooth-Lopez on 12/11/03 5:07pm
Msg #411

Luckily, it's my mother who I take in every case that an additional witness is needed... she is only acting as a witness to their signature... nothing else. She stays away from the signing table until such time that I call her... and she is certainly not a person to be motivated by the all-mighty dollar. She's gone with me on many signings thus far and has not received a dime in return. I'm completely comfortable in charging and would have no problem with a "good prosecutor" trying to "eat me or her alive"... because he'd have to have a mighty big mouth and a big set of "rocks". Also, on many occasion, I've been to signings where the borrowers say "no one witnessed my signings before....". Those are the ones I worry about... signings taken at an attorney's office or title company where the attorney completes the signing and then after the borrowers have left, takes the signed doc's to his secretary and says "get these witnessed". It happens... as it's happened to me.

Reply by Integra_Sign on 12/11/03 5:34pm
Msg #412

Ok Ninna Mantooth-Lopez! I feel ya! Got me laughing and all... It's good to know that you are what is supposed to the norm. It's them, that don't act in the way that you have and do that are the exception. As for the "rocks," well; I'm sure a good prosecutor would probably have to bring a big bag of them, as well as an extra set of dentures.

And you're right about the attorney's office, but we can't talk about that too much, they've got license.

Reply by LA_NOTARY on 12/11/03 10:14pm
Msg #413

Dearest Integra_Sign:

I have to say although I respect your comments to Ninna, I certainly do not agree. I am a Legal Assistant by trade and own a mobile notary company as well. I have had enough experience to know that most if not all Federal Courts pay witnesses for their testimonies. In fact, they are paid mileage costs if they travel, lets say, beyond a 50-mile radius and with those costs combined could easily exceed $100.00. The court system has done business like that since before we were thought of, so why shouldn't a notary charge the signing agent to supply competent, available witnesses (within reason, of course)?

I would not dare jeopardize my commission to overlook the importance of not having witnesses present at my signings. Furthermore, if the title company passes on the hassle of searching for professional and available notaries such as Ninna and myself to signing agencies to perform their signings, then, they can pass on the responsibility of having witnesses on hand to us. But they gotta pay, ya feel me?!? That is one of the services we provide and we cannot depend on anyone else to alert the borrowers of this. Don't you know that if we do not take great care in each and every signing we perform, then the borrower can come back on us.

Furthermore, as a bonafide company, we can contract persons to witness signings. I just had to respond to your comments because I couldn't let you come down on my homegirl like that. Thanks, Tina for having her back until I got here. Much success to you as well

Reply by Ninna Mantooth-Lopez on 12/12/03 7:39am
Msg #415

One of my homegirls comes through... couldn't have said it better myself! Thanks Yo! As for David aka Integra_Sign... you brought up some good points that others may want to take heed to... which I think I covered in one of my answers... "my witness is there only to witness the signature... she does not sit through the signing. ", thus if she was called as a witness to a lawsuit... she would have nothing to offer, but the fact she saw them sign. I guess that's what these forums are for... to lay out all possibilities for us to think about. :~)

Reply by Integra_Sign on 12/12/03 5:00pm
Msg #419

Oh, just put me out on front-street why don't cha! My lawd! Just spill all ma goodies...geeeeeez!!! Oooooohhhweeehhhh!!! LOL

LA, and Ninna:

It's good to see that we can be open to and for a moment of humor while we delve into the seriousness of what we do! As my posts indicate, it is always my aim to cast an objective viewpoint rather than to cast negativism. Sometimes it helps to express points of view that may not have been thought of.

While your integrity may be intact, there are a great many others that have made compromises, which have called their integrity into question. The mere mentioning of witnesses present points of view that others would do well to consider, depending upon their current practice and usage!

I try hard not to be offensive or dogmatic about anything reference what it is that we do! Rather, to express or present another viewpoint, from perhaps a different perspective. As Notaries, we walk a thin line! If not careful, we can begin to practice law without a license, regardless of our familiarity and/or proficiencies. No license...no practice. Additionally, there is the sovereignty of each state that are careful to regard. In some states, if not most, the mere appearance of impropriety can be enough to send you to the house (home, that is). No one really likes to have a flame kindled under them, if they're trying to do what's right! Just that alone can make some of us go home, sit down and just quit! You feel me? Ah, maybe not!

Witnesses, if used the wrong way, or used with mal intent can and has gotten some folk in big trouble! As alluded to in an earlier post, there are many renegades in this industry. And there are some that cause a question mark to be placed by their names. Previous posts on this boad alone is enough to prove my point here. If you practice business in an unscrupulous manner, wherein or at what point should one believe that you're not or haven't in any other areas?

For them that know how to employ the use of witnesses and that do so with great care, I would expect you to respond in the manner that you have. But also know, that my expression was not an attack upon your practice nor ethics. Conversely, for them that do engage in the unsrupulous or questionable employment of witnesses, perhaps they are now thinking about what they're doing...just maybe, anyway, I don't know....

As for you home-girls ganging up on me, well, it's cool...I'm ok. Just keep doing what you're doing to help keep us on the right track, and that'll be a great deal, remembering that "iron sharpens iron."

But I will always attempt to provoke thought. If I have a viewpoint or an opinion that will help to thoroughly challenge our motives, so that they become clear, even in our own minds, then perhaps it's not a bad thing. Keep doing what you're doing ladies, and I will support your efforts to the extent possible, given this medium. Hope to be able to meet you both at a conference someday.

Peace to you both, and much success with your every endeavor.

Reply by Ninna Mantooth-Lopez on 12/13/03 8:31am
Msg #421

Ok... I'm still laughing at your post... and I hope you were able to clean up your "goodies". Much success to you too and happy holidays!

Reply by Ninna Mantooth-Lopez on 12/11/03 4:54pm
Msg #410

Thanks, Tina... I had not seen any postings regarding this. I appreciate you letting me know. In the past, I've been bringing my mother and treating her to lunch or dinner.... all the while thinking she should be compensated monetarily in some way. When I advise the company who contracts me that I never offer this to the borrower up-front, but only if they state they cannot get one, they seem comfortable with the additional charge. I did have one company who wanted me to act as the additional witness. I had to remind him I'm in Louisiana... and unfortunately, I can't act in the capacity of both witness and notary. Thanks again for your input... Ninna