Posted by NNA Staff on 8/2/04 5:54pm
Msg #5370

FL Notary Primer

As it has been noted, the National Notary Association is taking steps to resolve this issue with Florida’s Office of the Governor, the Notary-regulating agency in Florida. We respectfully disagree with the preliminary information relayed here from that office, and we will share our opinion with the Office of the Governor. Almost universally, states define a notarial act as the process of identifying the signer or taking the oath, and not the signature and seal of the Notary.

We’re realists and recognize the Office of the Governor has the say-so here, but we feel that a limit on Notary fees to a “per application of the seal” basis is unfair to Florida Notaries. If the Office of the Governor disagrees, we plan to work with lawmakers in Florida to modify the statute to favor a more equitable application of fee for Notaries.

Reply by lorraine2 on 8/2/04 6:27pm
Msg #5371

NNA - I'm the notary that raised the question with the Governor's Office in Florida. I had hoped that you were correct in your position, as it would benefit my bottom line. I appreciate your willingness to take the issue further. I was also the notary that relayed the info...as others were waiting to hear the results - and I cut and pasted it - verbatim as it were. My intent has never been anything other than getting the right information to the people that need to know, a mission that I'm sure with which you can identify.

I would be very interested in knowing if there are any further developments with your contacts at the Governor's Office. Thanks for your post.

Reply by NNA Staff on 8/5/04 10:25am
Msg #5544

We’d like to report on our conversation with Heather Slager, State of Florida Notary Education Coordinator. Ms. Slager confirmed that the state’s official position is that for each certificate a Notary completes, a maximum fee of $10 may be charged. She also indicated that Notaries could opt to maximize their fees and charge per signer by simply attaching an additional “loose” certificate for each signer (see Scenario #3 below). She acknowledged that such a procedure is perfectly acceptable.

The following scenarios were discussed with Ms. Slanger to illustrate Florida’s fee law.

Scenario #1: A couple appears together before a Notary to acknowledge their signatures on a deed. The Notary inserts both names into a single pre-printed acknowledgment form on the last page of the deed, and affixes the Notary’s signature and seal. Since the Notary completed one certificate, the Notary may charge a maximum of $10 for one notarial act.

Scenario #2: The same couple acknowledges their signatures on a deed the same day but at different times. The Notary completes a separate certificate for each spouse at the time each signs the deed. The Notary has performed two notarial acts and may charge $20.

Scenario #3: The couple appears together before the Notary. The Notary, knowing a fee may be charged per certificate, inserts the husband’s name into the acknowledgment form on the last page of the deed and attaches a “loose” certificate with the wife’s name. Since two certificates have been completed (two notarial acts), the Notary may charge $20.

Thus, the fee that may legally be charged in Florida depends on how many certificates the Notary completes – or, stated another way, on how many times the Notary must affix an official seal and signature.

As we indicated in a previous posting, the NNA plans to work with lawmakers in Florida to develop a clarification of the fee law that would allow Notaries to charge per signer every time, regardless of the number of certificates. We feel that Notaries deserve fair payment for their work. And, we believe that the “per certificate” method now in use in Florida creates confusion and leaves Notaries, who might lawfully desire to collect fees per signer by attaching additional “loose” certificates, vulnerable to accusations of overcharging.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 8/5/04 11:16am
Msg #5547

In response to the posting by NNA Staff, who stated:
"Thus, the fee that may legally be charged in Florida depends on how many certificates the Notary completes – or, stated another way, on how many times the Notary must affix an official seal and signature.

"As we indicated in a previous posting, the NNA plans to work with lawmakers in Florida to develop a clarification of the fee law that would allow Notaries to charge per signer every time, regardless of the number of certificates. We feel that Notaries deserve fair payment for their work. And, we believe that the “per certificate” method now in use in Florida creates confusion and leaves Notaries, who might lawfully desire to collect fees per signer by attaching additional “loose” certificates, vulnerable to accusations of overcharging."

I see you finally agree that what we FL notaries have been saying to the NNA for quite some time is true and accurate. It also enhances the fact that maybe, just maybe, there are FL notaries who do know and understand Florida Notary Law better than the NNA.

As for working with FL lawmakers to change the way fees are charged, you said the the "per certificate" method is confusing. Well, maybe to you, but not to us. Maybe the NNA should be lobbying with the lawmakers in other states to change them from "per signature" to "per certificate". In my professional opinion, the "per certificate" pricing is more in line with standard business practices.

I ask the NNA to keep out of Florida lawmakers face, particularly on this issue. The law is written and has been interpreted. That is what we accept. If you want to make equity in the notarial marketplace, work with the lawmakers in states that only have minuscule fees for notarizing a document, and/or limit fees on travel an expenses. Those states need guidance more than Florida does. (And I'm not convinced that the NNA can properly provide that guidance either.)

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 8/5/04 11:23am
Msg #5548

I see the advertisement from the NNA now....

Florida Notaries - Want equity in your fees in line with California? Simply attach a loose certificate for each and every document signer. That way, you will effectively get paid $10 per signature.

Let me be first to suggest that you do not use this rouse as it may make things more difficult for Florida notaries than it already is.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 8/5/04 11:41am
Msg #5550

Another issue the NNA has "ducked"

When I was a member of the NNA, I asked whether or not a mortgage that states, 'SEE LEGAL DESCRIPTION ATTACHED HERETO AND MADE A PART HEREOF AS EXHIBIT "A"' and that exhibit is not present or does not contain the legal description of the property, should the notary public notarize the document?

The answer was that I needed to seek interpretation from my own state's notary division. Which in turn referred me to legal counsel.

According to FL statutes s. 117.107(10) "A notary public may not notarize a signature on a document if the document is incomplete or blank." Many other states have the same or similar wording in their statutes.

This is the type of "fight" we expect the NNA to do and provide us with meaningful and reliable answers to our questions. Instead, they "cop out" and tell us to call our SOS, or tell us we need to seek our own legal counsel. If that's the case, why bother with the NNA, as we must end up speaking with our own Notary Section or Attorney General to find the answers. I'd much rather spend my long distance dollars on getting the correct information the first time, rather then wasting my time (and membership dollars) to be told that the NNA can't help.

BTW, the answer that I received from legal counsel is that if the primary document (the one that gets notarized) references other documents as being "attached hereto" or "made a part here of" (or similar wording), then in order for the primary document to be considered complete, all the parts must be present at the time of signing and notarization. Title companies always tell me that they customarily attach the legal description before recording. I tell them that the document can't be notarized without it, and they send the legal description without any further problems. Is it too much to ask and expect the NNA as an organization to work with the title companies and lenders in providing this document with the package? Isn't that what the membership fees are for?

Reply by Becca_FL on 8/2/04 8:52pm
Msg #5380

NNA Staff:

Thank you for your most recent post regarding the Florida stamp vs. act issue. As a Florida Notary, I am very interested in knowing the outcome. However, I am still not convinced that the NNA will do much for my business . I received yet another solicitation to join the NNA, just today. I was offered a lovely Saddle Brief Bag plus Hotline support, identity theft insurance, monthly publications, 24hr help, discounts & special member rewards all for the low, low price of just $45.00 per year!

In my opinion, a professional uses leather, not the canvas crap you are giving away because you could not sell enough at the past National convention. Why would I want the 24 hour hotline if you are giving out (admittedly so) incorrect information? Please tell me how this will help my notary business? I am willing to accept a one year membership, for free, and report to the various boards, for free, how the membership enhanced my business and, all the wonderful fortunes being a member has brought me. As a former Ad Exec for radio, television and print, I can tell you, this could be a very well spent $45.00. Will you take me up on this?

I am Not a certified signing agent however, I am a Certified Real Estate Paralegal (too many years running with the slime balls in advertising) and I learned early on that I was being taught wrong! I took it upon myself to learn notary laws and how and why they pertained to me as a Notary in the State of Florida. I do not depend on the NNA to answer my questions, that is what the SOS office (and Sylvia and Paul) are for. I am still baffled by some of the questions some of your CSA’s ask on this and other boards. As I understand it, the students do get a nice luncheon.

I don’t care what business you are in, you sell the sizzle, not the steak. To me, the NNA is nothing but a bunch of sizzle. The steak is over done and too tough to swallow. The #1 rule in advertising is “What’s in it for me?” I’m still asking myself that very question about your organization.

You talk about how a per notarization fee will help us Florida notaries make more money. What about the notaries in other states still making $2.50 & $5.00 per notarization???? What are you doing for them? What about flooding the state of California with so many notaries? In my opinion, the NNA is no better than an after hours “get rich quick” infomercial just waiting for the next “poor soul’ who needs to make money to put food on the table. I think your advertising scams are despicable. The only people getting rich off the NNA disciple campaign are the radio sales people and the NNA itself.

I am serious about my offer. Please, if you are so sure of your organization, make me a believer and I will broadcast it to everyone that will listen.

Reply by DonR/NYC on 8/2/04 9:31pm
Msg #5382

HERE HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply by Steven @ NNA on 8/4/04 6:10pm
Msg #5513

Becca_FL, I'd like you accept your offer. Please e-mail me at [e-mail address] with your phone number, and I'll call you to set up your membership.

Reply by Steven Bastian @ NNA on 8/6/04 6:24pm
Msg #5654

Becca_FL: I'm serious about giving you an NNA membership. If you'd really like to do this, please e-mail your phone number to me at sbastian@nationalnotary, and I will call and set it up.

Steven Bastian
Member Services Group Manager
National Notary Association

Reply by Gracie on 8/13/04 2:14pm
Msg #6030

Steven, did Becca_FL ever take you up on your offer?

>Becca_FL: I'm serious about giving you an NNA membership. If you'd really like to do this, please e-mail your phone number to me at sbastian@nationalnotary, and I will call and set it up.<

Reply by Becca/FL on 4/13/05 9:40pm
Msg #31635

Steven - Thank you, I accept.

Sorry it took so long for me to see your response. We were a little sidetracked here in Florida from August to October. Not to mention the fact that the elactricity was off for a total of 28 days durring that period.

I'm glad I decided to review old posts. I'll email you tomorrow.

Becca

Reply by LorraineK/FL on 8/2/04 11:43pm
Msg #5401

When I asked the Gov. office as well as NNA to look into the matter, I had hoped for positive improvement. I think that the Gov. office responded as it saw fit, and I believe that NNA could have ignored the notary community had it chose to do so. Instead they decided to come on this board and made a commitment to work toward legislation, if necessary, for the benefit for every notary. I understand that there are a number of issues regarding many notaries opinion regarding their organization; however, no one could expect that they could fix, or even effectively look into every issue all at once. Please give them an opportunity to resolve this issue. If we as notaries can open an effective dialog with their organization, then maybe those other issues can be addressed, and the measure of benefit for all will be greatly increased. I'm sure that over the past week or so the NNA Staff member has gotten an earfull of what they are doing wrong - and still they came back to this forum. Please give them the opportunity to show you what they can do right.

Reply by JAYFLORIDA on 8/3/04 6:22pm
Msg #5427

You have earned my respect, LorraineK/FL. Your father in heaven would be proud, I am sure of your tack and openmindness.