Posted by Anonymous on 12/28/04 1:59pm
Msg #14617

Confused about Services

I know this is going to come as a shocker to those of you who have a lot of experience, but I am relatively new to the notary business, and I'm a little lost. I was reading through some of the posted messages, and I couldn't believe how technical it sounded. I became a notary just to sign documents from time to time for my then-boss. Last year, I found this site and posted my name and number. I've gotten a little sporatic business, but I basically know how to sign my name, and that's it! (LOL!) Now, please don't reprimand me for my ignorance. Anyway, here is my question: does anyone know of a web site where one can learn about the various services we notaries are supposed to offer? I'd also like to learn about becoming certified. Finally, any tips as to the type of income that can be generated by getting certified?

Thanks very much for your help (and understanding, I hope!)
Anonymous (maybe you can understand why I don't really want to post my name with this message...)

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/28/04 2:09pm
Msg #14621

I am not trying to be a smart aleck. However, you may believe that this is what my angle is here. It's not. This is what I did:

Now that you have heard of the busienss, start doing searches on Google.com for "Loan Signing Agent" and "Notary Signing Agent."

You can read this article on my website which may give you an overview.
http://texnotary.com/to_borrower.htm

You can read my newsletter at
http://texnotarynewsletter.blogspot.com

There are zero shortcuts. If you do not believe you can read through all the info you probably won't like the job. There is an intensive learning curve and marketing time to go through to get started.

Once you have the basic concept of the job down, start at the front of this forum and read through posts until you know the right questions to ask.

Again, that's what I did. It's served me well.

Brenda Stone
Texas Notary "Publisher"


Good luck!!

Reply by Anonymous on 12/28/04 2:28pm
Msg #14624

Well, thanks, Brenda. I actually have no problem reading a lot of information, and that's precisely the kind of advice I'm seeking.

Best to you.

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/28/04 2:52pm
Msg #14629

Good advice from both Jon and BobbiCt...excellent advice.

Reply by ZARAL319 on 12/28/04 7:23pm
Msg #14667

Re: Confused about Services-Thank you, Brenda!

As a new Notary/CSA, I am constantly searching for answers in this new endeavor of mine. I cannot thank people like BrendaTX enough for the spirit of generosity to share essential information to others like myself. I hope it comes back to you Brenda... tenfold, which it surely will.

Reply by Susie/OH on 12/28/04 7:37pm
Msg #14673

Re Thank you, Brenda!

Brenda has been a great help to me and others. Witty, and to the point. Enjoy her posts. Thanks, from me also Brenda.

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/28/04 7:41pm
Msg #14674

Re: Confused about Services-Thank you, Brenda!

Thank you!

Reply by Jon on 12/28/04 2:30pm
Msg #14625

First, and most important, LEARN your state laws regarding notarization inside and out. If you "... basically know how to sign my name, and that's it!" , then you SHOULD NOT be doing notarizations of any kind. There is alot of responsibility that goes with being a notary, and in CA notaries have an unlimited liability for improper acts, intentional or unintentional. I believe some other states have similar liability laws.

Second, you should check with your state laws to determine what you are and are not allowed to do. In FL for example, you can conduct a marriage, in CA you can't. Some states allow notaries to certify copies, others either limit what can be certified or don't allow it at all.

Third, determine what you WANT to offer. In CA, we are required by law to perform any notarization, provided there was a proper request and payment of required fees. However, I am not required to be a "mobile" notary. Nor am I required to offer the services of a NSA(which by the way is diferent from being "just a notary").

Fourth, in my opinion, certification is just a way for the certifying company to make money. There is NO standard for certification, thus one certification may be acceptable to one company, but not acceptable to another. If you take a certification course, take it for the knowledge you will hopefully gain, and not for the increase in pay because you are now "Certified". (BTW, my opinion is that you should skip the NNA course, regardless)

Reply by Anonymous on 12/28/04 2:54pm
Msg #14630

WOW! I'm SO glad I did this anonymously!! You guys are BRUTAL! Who are you to say I should not be doing notary work at all? You know nothing about me, other than the short paragraph I have written here.

First, I get a message saying I should not look for a short cut, and if I do, I don't belong in this business (I never said one word about looking for a short cut.) Next, I get a message saying I should NOT be in this business at all! Really? Well gee, that's very helpful. I wonder what you guys knew when you first started.

All I wanted was some help. But, PLEASE DO NOT reply if all you can offer is discouragement and downright mean-spirited jibes. Thank goodness my collegues in my other life are not as unwilling to help as you lot! I consider that I would never have gotten ahead in that endeavor without their wonderful, generous help. Sorry, but that experience is what set my expectations for this one. Silly me!!!

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/28/04 3:06pm
Msg #14631

Silly You:

Your original message *was* a short cut.

Brenda

Reply by Jon on 12/28/04 3:23pm
Msg #14632

What I said was not mean spirited. I never said you don't belong in this business. What I said is that if the only thing you know is how to sign your name(your words, not mine), you need to get more education before doing notarizations. I you went to a mechanic who said "I know what a car is, now where is the transmission?" would you let him work on your car?

I also gave you some very good advice, skip the NNA course. That advice alone should be worth any amount of heckling you may get.

BTW, if you think I'm brutal, don't even consider reading any response by CaliNotary. Consider the warning some more good advice.

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/28/04 4:48pm
Msg #14646

Nah, I'll let you and Brenda take the fall for this one. This way I'm not the only "mean spirited" one on the board.

FWIW, the advice you and Brenda gave was very good. Too bad Anonymous is too hyper sensitive and thickheaded to realize it.

And to Anonymous: How dare you come onto this board as a newcomer and tell us how we should or should not reply to your posts. We'll reply however we damn well please and if you don't like it, don't let the <virtual> door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Reply by Anonymous on 12/28/04 5:39pm
Msg #14654

As far as I can tell, the board doesn't belong to anyone - old or new. Very nice commentary so far. What I see is a bunch of muscle flexing. Lovely.

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/28/04 7:07pm
Msg #14663

Hi Cali...

I can't help but believe these two Anons are actually Notary Pranksters, not serious about getting into the business.

It always strikes me as peculiar when someone looking for help arrives, asks questions, and when they get straight-talking answers, they get huffy and start crying foul.

Well, what'd you post for???

I think it's bogus posters, actually. Probably bored and just getting out the ol' stickaroo to stir up something.

Either that, or RogerOH's well-coined phrase of "sense of entitlement" to have us all produce a list of how-to's as if we are honor bound. This is not MaryKay Cosmetics or Amway. We help one another, but when we help, and receive help, it's a "gift." I am thankful for all the help I have gotten here.

Ok...if anyone reading this has mistakenly assessed that I have been an NSA for the last ten years, that's incorrect. I came here last January watching the boards and learning from posters. I have learned a lot, taken my tumbles and learned to do my own research.

Like I have said before, if I would have let tiny obstacles like an abrupt post from seasoned notaries put me off, good riddance of me for the SA industry.

You know, Cali, IMHO, if you cannot stand up to straight answers and earn respect by learning from the tumbles taken on the forums, then it's going to be difficult to stand tall enough to negotiate fees, be unwavering on your notary rules, and so forth. (And, yes, respect of my peers here IS important to me.)

As gentle as NotRot is, if a person cannot take the heat of NotaryRotary.com, there are probably underlying personal issues to be worked out that have little to do with things notary.

Now, in response to this, Anon(s) may want to post that they don't need our respect and continue to poke fun, make snide remarks, and get some kind of childish pleasure at making light of our "hoopla." Well, let 'er rip fellers. This board's been a little boring lately.

And, if that's your attitude...that's precisely why you probably don't want to stick around. We do actually have respect and friendships here. We actually call one another, email one another, and sometimes wake the other up if we have a question and it's late.

(BTW, where is HisHughness??? )

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/29/04 12:02am
Msg #14766

You may be right Brenda. Sometimes I'm just mystified at the things people get so touchy about in here, and the person being a troll is the most logical answer. But another part of me just sees this as the result of the self esteem movement in this country. Some people think that their feelings should be of paramount importance over everything else.

I'm just not sure what people expect when they come in here and say "I have no idea what I'm doing and I'm obviously too lazy to actually read this board because I'm going to ask the same question that is asked in here on a weekly basis".

This job definitely isn't for wimps. Just yesterday morning I had a Power of Attorney signing, the title company wanted the original POA, the borrower didn't think he had to provide it to them since he had filed it with the county. He was cussing up a storm, "I've been in the f***ing title business for 25 years and they're trying to tell me that they need my f***ing POA? That's B***S***, I filed the POA with the f***ing county" and so on.

I got the title company on the phone and handed the phone to him. The woman from the title company told him to give the phone back to me and then snapped at me (quite snottily)"YOU are the one contracted with us, it's YOUR responsibility to give him this information" and then made me repeat to him what she was telling me over the phone. Which, of course, ended up being the wrong information.

Finally got a manager on the phone, she confirmed that a photocopy of the POA was fine since it had been filed with the county, and the signing continued.

Now if the people on this board can't handle a perfectly polite and reasonable response like Jon's, what are they going to do when something like the above happens at a signing?

Reply by curious on 12/29/04 12:08am
Msg #14768

Like I said CaliNotary... your posts crack me up.... I'll just read... and when I have something really important to say... then heck, I'll mention it.
With above mention to your response... what happened through all of that transaction??? It is the outcome I am interested in hearing. Did all end well? What company was it for, and do you mind disclosing that info?

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/29/04 12:43am
Msg #14779

It was for Nationwide Title and Appraisal. Once the POA thing was straightened out everything was fine and we were done in 15 minutes. When people are upset like that it doesn't bother me in the least. I know it's the situation they're upset with, not me personally.

Reply by curious on 12/29/04 12:46am
Msg #14781

That's good! I don't get to worried about what people think either, screw 'em if they don;t like me. But I do have one other question.... I have noticed a bunch of notaries added their photo to market themselves... what is up with that? Seems like the relators got so vain with that, please don't tell me we are headed in that direction!

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/29/04 9:13am
Msg #14820

Ouch...the truth hurts! You've got me nailed, Curious. I am nothing if not vain, and malignantly so. Or, I am using a tried and true marketing technique by putting my picture on my online marketing vehicles.

Reply by curious on 12/29/04 10:39am
Msg #14831

Oh oh... sorry 'bout that! Heck if it works... more power to you. Maybe if I use my pic I can snag a few signings and a few dates!

Reply by Jon on 12/29/04 1:25pm
Msg #14864

curious quipped:

"Maybe if I use my pic I can snag .... a few dates!"

I tell you what, post your picture and I'm sure you'll get some honest opinions as to your chances!!!

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/29/04 12:15am
Msg #14771

That's a great example of what I am talking about.

Thank you for sharing it and taking the time to post the realities of what CAN happen. 70% of the time things go smoothly, but there's always a string of these to make me wonder if I am tough enough myself.

This forum is but a sliver of what it feels like to be accosted by hiring entities and angry borrowers.

Reply by curious on 12/29/04 12:20am
Msg #14772

Really this is nothing compared to what is really out there... Already I have been jacked around, but if I let my guard down, they win. Ummm, fat chance, I may be somewhat new, but I try to look like I know what's up. Hey with 3 kids, a message board aint gonna ruin my day!

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/29/04 12:21am
Msg #14773

Curious said: "Really this is nothing compared to what is really out there... Already I have been jacked around, but if I let my guard down, they win. Ummm, fat chance, I may be somewhat new, but I try to look like I know what's up. Hey with 3 kids, a message board aint gonna ruin my day!"

T H A N K Y O U...Be like Teflon, let it slide right off.

Reply by curious on 12/29/04 12:26am
Msg #14774

NO... THANK YOU! I thought you were going to rip on me.. whew!!!

Reply by Anonymous on 12/29/04 12:43am
Msg #14780

If you notice, I already sent Jon a note saying it was NOT his message that was offensive; in fact, it was YOUR message that was the most offensive. Your language is ridiculous, and I cannot imagine why you used asterisks and exclamation points above, when you've already cursed your head off in your previous reply to me. How silly is that! You are, quite frankly, RUDE and ridiculous, and if you're so bothered by someone asking a simple question, just because it's been asked before and you find it annoying, WHY take your precious, holy time to respond over and over and over???? I don't see you identifying yourself here on this message board! Who are you to act as if you OWN this site! You sound so petty and mean and just completely unpleasant. What the heck is your problem anyway???

Reply by curious on 12/29/04 12:50am
Msg #14783

Now I AM confused... are you responding to me? What message of mine was so offensive???

Reply by Anonymous on 12/29/04 12:56am
Msg #14785

LOL! This IS confusing, isn't it!? No, I hope I did not reply to you; if so, it was inadvertant. There are so many postings that it's hard to keep it straight. I actually liked what you wrote.

This is getting funny, and it beats watching Jay Leno. ;)

Reply by curious on 12/29/04 1:00am
Msg #14786

I have to agree! I was taken aback a bit, no harm done. Hey, we all need a bit of advice sometime. Although I do prefer Jon Stewart over Jay Leno.
What state are you in if you dont mind me asking?

Reply by Anonymous on 12/29/04 1:03am
Msg #14788

The state of confusion, at this point. LOL!
;)

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/29/04 2:02am
Msg #14801

Are you always this clueless? I hadn't yet posted in this thread when you wrote the following:

****************************
WOW! I'm SO glad I did this anonymously!! You guys are BRUTAL! Who are you to say I should not be doing notary work at all? You know nothing about me, other than the short paragraph I have written here.

First, I get a message saying I should not look for a short cut, and if I do, I don't belong in this business (I never said one word about looking for a short cut.) Next, I get a message saying I should NOT be in this business at all! Really? Well gee, that's very helpful. I wonder what you guys knew when you first started.

All I wanted was some help. But, PLEASE DO NOT reply if all you can offer is discouragement and downright mean-spirited jibes. Thank goodness my collegues in my other life are not as unwilling to help as you lot! I consider that I would never have gotten ahead in that endeavor without their wonderful, generous help. Sorry, but that experience is what set my expectations for this one. Silly me!!!

**********************************

It obviously couldn't have been directed at me since I HADN'T WRITTEN ANYTHING YET. So again, who were the above comments meant for, Brenda or Jon?

As for the language, there is a difference between "damn" and the F word in our society. In case you couldn't figure it out I was quoting the borrower when I used all the "asterisks and exclamation points". Saying "damn" and "don't let the door hit you in the ass" is considered cursing my head off to you? I hear worse language in most PG rated movies. And I'm sure you're not offended by that anyway, it's just something to harp on so you can conveniently ignore the points I'm making.

Reply by Anonymous on 12/28/04 7:32pm
Msg #14671

My experience has been that, when people rant and cuss and try to control everyone else around them, even remotely, they are generally trying to compensate for other shortcomings.

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/28/04 11:27pm
Msg #14755

Well lets see. You wrote "All I wanted was some help. But, PLEASE DO NOT reply if all you can offer is discouragement and downright mean-spirited jibes".

I'd say that is remotely trying to control us. What shortcomings are you compensating for?

Reply by kmnotary_CA on 12/28/04 9:56pm
Msg #14710

CaliNotary,
Now this is to the poinbt

Reply by Anonymous on 12/28/04 7:28pm
Msg #14670

I apologize, Jon. You were very gracious in sharing your advice. My earlier response was not to you, but to 2 very cutting responses. Anyway, thank you for your advice. I am going to take it.

No, I would not go to a mechanic like the one you described above. LOL! No way! This is precisely why I want to learn more about being a notary. Anyway, we're always told to ask when we seek guidance. How can that be a bad thing?

Best to you, Jon!

Reply by Jon on 12/28/04 8:41pm
Msg #14687

Apology accepted

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/28/04 11:39pm
Msg #14761

Nice backpedaling, but you're obviously lying. In case you didn't notice, all the posts are time stamped.

At the time you responded to Jon, the only other person who had responded to your question was Brenda. You responded to her by saying "thanks, that's exactly the kind of advice I'm looking for".

So if those were the only two responses you had when you posted your rant, who exactly was it directed at? Brenda, who you thanked for her advice, or Jon, who you just stated was not the intended recipient?

Reply by Anonymous on 12/29/04 12:47am
Msg #14782

Actually, again Mr. Know-Everything, you are wrong: if you check the time stamp of this message, you will see that we are in different time zones, and the messages post accordingly.

Reply by Jon on 12/29/04 10:17am
Msg #14828

Actually, all posting times are Central time. When I post, the post time is always 2 hours ahead. Since I am on PST, I count Mountain and Central.

Reply by Jon on 12/29/04 2:24pm
Msg #14880

Bobbi/CT had also responded.

Reply by Bobbi in CT on 12/28/04 2:34pm
Msg #14626

Not a "Notary Public business"

"Various services we notaries are supposed to offer": You are a Notary Public, commissioned as a public official by your State to perform notarizations (acknowledgments & jurats) and, depending on the State you are commissioned in, perform marriages, certify copies... There are no various notary services. Read and re-read your State handbook or manual. It will tell you what a Notary Public can do. Notarial services are very limited. This is your Public Official office, ruled by Your State laws, and with set fees for notarizations set by Your State. Personally, for the plain-and-simple Notary Public "news" and "general information", I recommend the National Notary Association magazine. Just start with the bare-bones-basic Notary Public members. Until YOU decide if you want to move foward with other business services that include notarizations, don't splurge on supplies, additional sub-memberships, books, training classes, etc. Again, this is a personal opinion that if you have a full time job that you like and became a Notary to assist where you work without intending to jump into the independent contractor, start your own business mode, start slow. For example, E&O insurance and bonds for Notaries only covers your notarial acts - NOT your signing agent acts; i.e., the insurance only covers an error within the notarization block. If it's outside the notarization block or a document that does not require notarization, it is not covered.

What you see today are businesses or independent contractors that have sprung up that include notarial services as part of the business. Many residential loan documents require notarization, but not all of them. (I'll use CT $ as an example.) A Notary Public may only charge $5 per notarization and 35 cents per mile travel fee. I travel 10 miles to a person's home at their request to notarize three documents as a Notary Public = $18.50. A title company calls me, FedEx's a loan package to me, I schedule signing with borrowers, travel to their home, notarize 3 documents, watch to make sure they initial and sign other documents in the package that don't require notarization, fax a confirmation to the title company, and drop the signed originals in the FedEx box as a Signing Agent = $60. AKA "Notary Signing Agent."

A "Mobile Notary Public" may travel to hospitals, doctor's offices, and other businesses that need a document notarized, but do not have a staff Notary Public on hand. Say, evenings and weekends.

I call this the "You Wear Two Hats" situation. You are a Notary Public, a public official following your State laws and requirements when you perform a notarization (MEMORIZE, highlight, and flag the rules). You are performing another service as an Independent Contractor, which allows you to charge a higher fee than your state law allows because your services are not just for notarization. You follow the directions of the company that hired you.

Notaries Public only offer the public service that their State law allows. Except for California, I don't know of any state where you can make a full-time living just as a Notary Public. What you read on the Internet are individuals who have found ways to earn a living incorporating their Notary Public services into their business.

Reply by Anonymous2 on 12/28/04 3:57pm
Msg #14633

Holy Smokes... I am in the same boat you are! I just want a few questions answered and yes I am a bit scared about getting my feet wet. I too have poked in and out of message boards and do find none of them are helpful... it's a bunch of self rightous hoopla that comes from people who have been in the business for awhile, whom have obviously forgotten what it feels like to get started.
As for my 2 cents... get certified! It does pay more and more information is discussed throughout the course. And hopefully in time "Anonymous", our paths can cross with private emails back and forth with the support we all need as notaries!!!

Reply by anitap/ca on 12/28/04 4:51pm
Msg #14648

Basically -
When you become a notary learn the notarial laws of your state. Call your state agency if you do not understand what is being asked of you to do or if you are unclear how to do something.

My husband and I became notaries because we had TWO notaries come to a hospital and mess up each time. I could NOt locate these notaries again to fix their errors.
So we decided to become knowledgable notaries and part of our business plan is that if we do make an error we make the appropriate correction without cost to client. If we do not know the answer, we are sure to ask and not just guess.

Be dependable and honest. Don't be afraid to say I don't know. Make every effort to to things the right and leagal way.
Understand that there is a very mportant reason why smeone needs something notarized and it is not something to be taken lightly.

Reply by Anonymous on 12/28/04 5:43pm
Msg #14656

Excellent advice! Thanks very much! Really appreciate it.

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/28/04 7:48pm
Msg #14676

Anitap/ca said: "Understand that there is a very important reason why someone needs something notarized and it is not something to be taken lightly."

Could not have said it better myself, Anita. Thank you.

Reply by Anonymous on 12/28/04 5:42pm
Msg #14655

Awwww...thank you so much, Anonymous2! I can't believe how silly this is! You ask for some tips, and people just chew you to bits!! It's ridiculous! I think that when people are not very secure, they must find ways to feel superior, so maybe that's some of what's happening here. Anyway, thank you so much for your friendly response. Hopefully, we can find a way to meet up.

Reply by Terri - CA on 12/28/04 5:57pm
Msg #14657

Such a shame, all of the above posts were great advise. Sit back, take a deep breath and think about the information that was provided. Get past the emotional and re-read them. You'll find that being in business, you really have to put the emotion aside and use your head for thinking clearly.

Terri
Lancaster, CA

Reply by Anonymous on 12/28/04 6:39pm
Msg #14660

Absolutely right, Terri. This is invaluable advice. Thank you for your insight.

Happy holidays!

Reply by HisHughness on 12/28/04 9:03pm
Msg #14688

Anonymous, who hereafter shall be known as "no cojones," whined:

***I too have poked in and out of message boards and do find none of them are helpful... it's a bunch of self rightous hoopla that comes from people who have been in the business for awhile...***

I've been a lawyer for 33 years. I was in active practice for 11 years. I have been a notary off and on for about 20 years. I had been a notary public signing agent for a year the first time I signed on to this board.

I learned more about the responsibilities of a notary public in four months of reading this board than I did in all of the other activities above. Your "self-rightous hoopla," Anonymous, is the best instructor around. With your attitude, you'll never learn that -- and the quicker you crash and burn, the better off the people you would have ill-served will be.

Reply by Anonymous on 12/28/04 9:38pm
Msg #14705

Dear Mr. Hughness:

Actually, your quotes were from the message of another Anonymous poster (Anonymous2). Clearly, this person saw the outrageous responses I was getting and chose not to chance revealing their identity, either. But, I am sorry you and a number of other experienced notaries seem to have taken my simple query so very personally. It's completely out of line the way this thing has evolved into a series of insults. Very strange to someone who is a "newbie" (apparently an evil word). I am honestly shocked about some of the horrid responses I've received, replete with cussing and directives to get out of the business. (Actually sort of funny, when you consider the original query...) I would never have guessed that the experienced players would be so crass and ungenerous. It reminds me of the pitiful way the experienced pro golfers reacted to the guy who needed to use a cart because he had a handicap. Like some of the people in this forum, they were rude and mean spirited, and they said horrible things about him. Talk about a lack of grace!

As for my customers, they love me, and they return time and time again. Must be my charming personality and super good looks.

Reply by kmnotary_CA on 12/28/04 10:05pm
Msg #14713

Hugh,
Glad to see you back. These anonomous posters sound like one a few weeks back that went from insult to insult, then to apoplogy. Anyway, sounds like the same person to me by the responses to others Posts.

Reply by anonymous2 on 12/28/04 11:49pm
Msg #14762

Oh Palease Mr Hughness, or whomever you think you are...
In any event I don't care if you are a lawyer or not! You don't have to be so rediculous! I have read these posts for about 13 months now and all of the stupid "self Rightous" posts never end... just remember JA that it's the "newbies" that get all of the "new" business... and leave you out in the cold!
Anonymous... go out and find a new chat site... this one is obviously for attorneys who no longer practice... oh excuse me... they do 50 buck notaries instead!

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/29/04 12:10am
Msg #14769

Boy, I'd think that after reading this group for 13 months you'd pick up a few things about grammar and spelling. Obviously not.

Reply by Anonymous on 12/29/04 1:01am
Msg #14787

Okay, just an interim note: you are still evidently confusing me with someone else who is posting anonymously. I happen to be a book editor in my other life, and a lot of people depend on me for grammar and language counsel. I am confident about language issues, so I'm not going to argue about this.

HOWEVER, I'm perfectly willing to get back to arguing about your cussing and insults, if you like. LOL! Just let me know.

;)

Reply by HisHughness on 12/29/04 1:25am
Msg #14793

Anonymous riposted:

***Okay, just an interim note: you are still evidently confusing me with someone else who is posting anonymously. ***

As a point of order, Anon, "evidently" is an adverb modifying "are still confusing," and thus your response should read "you evidently are still confusing me..." Sorry; you are being such a pissant I couldn't resist.

Reply by Anonymous on 12/29/04 1:29am
Msg #14795

Split infinitives are a long-dead issue, my love, but thanks anyway. I would cite my sources, but I don't want to take time away from this fun right now.
;)

Reply by HisHughness on 12/29/04 1:43am
Msg #14797

Anonymous countered:

***Split infinitives are a long-dead issue, my love, but thanks anyway. I would cite my sources, but I don't want to take time away from this fun right now.***

I begin to understand the level of literacy displayed in so many books nowadays. You were dealing with a participle, not an infinitive. You were also off base about split infinitives being a dead issue. To quote Burchfield, "The Spoken Word," 1981, "Avoid splitting infinitives whenever possible, but do not suffer undue remorse if a split inifinitive is >>unavoidable<< [emphasis supplied] for the natural and unambiguous completion of a sentence already begun."

Reply by curious or confused? on 12/29/04 10:47am
Msg #14834

Oh... I think I need to take some English classes, I am so confused, but not be be mistaken for the original confused. Please excuse my poor grammar if I have botched these posts before. Off to the dentist, have a super day everyone!

Reply by HisHughness on 12/29/04 11:30am
Msg #14845

curious or confused? bemoans:

***Oh... I think I need to take some English classes, I am so confused, but not be be mistaken for the original confused. Please excuse my poor grammar if I have botched these posts before. Off to the dentist, have a super day everyone!***

I don't think I would worry about it. I just wanted to gig "Confused about Services" a bit. She -- or he -- has got to be the most pompous poster I've seen on this board. Except for me, of course.

Reply by Anonymous on 12/29/04 12:52pm
Msg #14856

OMG! You are SO RIGHT! That was NOT a split infinitive issue, and I was truly wonked out when I looked at that! LOL! BUT, "The Spoken Word" is a work from the early eighties (as you, yourself, indicated) and is NOT considered the final authority on the subject. Only one of many, many examples, the current version of the "English Heritage Book of English Usage" devotes an entire page to explaining why it is okay to split an infinitive. Here is an excerpt:

"To boldly go where no one has gone before. This phrase, so familiar to Star Trek fans, presents us with the dilemma of the split infinitive—an infinitive that has an adverb between the to and the verb. Split infinitives have been condemned as ungrammatical for nearly 200 years, but it is hard to see what exactly is wrong with saying to boldly go. Its meaning is clear. It has a strong rhythm than reinforces the meaning. And rearranging the phrase only makes it less effective. We may also want to go boldly where no one has gone before, but it doesn’t sound as exciting. And certainly no one wants to go where no one has gone before boldly. That is a different voyage entirely. "

This is beginning to feel an awful lot like work. LOL!
;)

Reply by Eatha/PA on 12/29/04 1:16pm
Msg #14861

I would be willing to go boldly

Reply by HisHughness on 12/30/04 2:00am
Msg #14955

Anonymous defended:

***Only one of many, many examples, the current version of the "English Heritage Book of English Usage" devotes an entire page to explaining why it is okay to split an infinitive.***


This post is directed to Anonymous. It may be skipped, justifiably and understandably, by those who have had their bate [look it up, Anon] of the tedium of the few who would practice grammatical parsing on a forum intended for discussions of HUDs, houses and homestead exemptions. Conversely, Anonymous would be wise to read – and absorb – this post, and to stay the urge of her itchy fingers to respond until she really knows whereof she speaks.

Anonymous has staked out the position that in contemporary usage, splitting an infinitive is as acceptable as splitting a dinner check among friends. It was that sort of cavalier approach to the language of Shakespeare and Milton that has robbed us of the uniqueness of the word “unique,” which alone among its ken once meant not rare or unusual, but one, and only one, of a kind; which has rendered “inflammable” as a synonym for “flammable”; and which on this very forum has spawned the abominable noun “newbie”.

The problem with the position of Anonymous and others of her ilk is that if you give her a word, she will attempt to take a phrase; give her a phrase and she will attempt to take a clause; give her a clause, and she will attempt to take a sentence; give her a sentence, and she will attempt to cut years off of it and get still more time off for good behavior, while really all she has earned is a spanking and bedtime without supper.

Be aware, Anonymous, be very aware that the unbifurcated infinitive remains the lingua franca of the discriminating and knowledgeable grammarian, though obviously and regrettably not that of the present generation of book editors. The erudite H.W. Fowler, to whom all other – and lesser -- grammarians pay obeisance, stated it best when he said the English-speaking world is divided into five classes: 1) those who neither know nor care what a split infinitive is; 2) those who do not know, but care very much; 3) those who know and condemn; 4) those who know and approve; and 5) those who know and distinguish.

In her headlong plunge into the Pit of Linguistic Depravity, Anonymous has conflated all five categories into the fifth. In other words, from the simple fact that a split infinitive is occasionally acceptable and perhaps, on far less numerous occasions, either desirable or even necessary, she has made a quantum leap to the position that bisecting any infinitive under any circumstances is de rigueur. Anonymous should listen to her betters – including me, of course:

The sainted Fowler, quoting Burchfield approvingly: “Avoid splitting infinitives whenever possible…”

Carter and Skates, “The Rinehart Handbook for Writers”: In general, however, you should avoid splitting infinitives – particularly with long modifiers. Such splits always create awkward constructions.”

Foley and Gordon, “Conventions & Choices”: “…it is usually preferable to keep an infinitive intact…”

Nations, Dec. 30, 2004 post to Anonymous: “Pfffffffftttttttt.”

I think that about covers it. I am infinitely tired of this, so I think I’ll split.

Reply by Anonymous on 12/30/04 3:42am
Msg #14958

I appreciate your point of view. Fortunately for you, I am only one voice among many, many of the "present generation of book editors." Many editors agree with you, and many others agree with me. I'm sure you're aware that we could war back and forth for ages, each quoting source after source to bolster our respective opinions; however, I can see that, while you are by vocation an attorney, you have the skill set to competently defend your position here, and probably in any forum. This is not a debate that can be won, as the issue is a subjective one. Honestly, I don't WANT to continue this debate. I am an editor of educational materials (text books); not novels (although I am currently working on a fictional manuscript of my own). I don't frequently employ literary license, but I am trained to know when it is appropriate and acceptable.

I would never dream of adopting a patronizing demeanor towards an attorney in matters of law. Your opinion in this matter, while well supported, comes down to basically that; justifiable opinion. The same is true of my own stance. The difference is that, while you have made it clear that you believe your opinion is the only one with credence, I generally defer to those who have not only the ability to defend a given scenario, but the experience to back it up (I refuse to say, "the experience up with which to back it." LOL!) Good work, Mr. Attorney, defending your position. What say we let this go now? It's getting rather...boring.
;)

Reply by HisHughness on 12/30/04 4:16am
Msg #14959

Anonymous dismissively notes:

***The difference is that, while you have made it clear that you believe your opinion is the only one with credence, I generally defer to those who have not only the ability to defend a given scenario, but the experience to back it up***

I daresay I was an editor before you were born, Anonymous, and was teaching the craft on the largest university campus in the country before you ever blue-pencilled your first word. And though I am retired, as an avocation I have for more than a decade evaluated, both holistically and grammatically, essays on teacher certification exams for several states.

I thought it was clear that my tongue was virtually glued to my cheek, except for the substance of the argument. I'll try not to be so subtle next time. In the meantime, you may want to bone up on your deference protocols.

As you will note from my earlier post, I had already exited the field.

Reply by Anonymous on 12/30/04 8:41am
Msg #14969

Last Post

I'm so sorry, your royal jerkoff! What I meant to say was that I am ABLE to defend my position all day long. The problem is that it feels too much like work to sit here and look up my sources (as you have been doing) and argue the point over and over. The ONLY time I normally debate, other than at work, is when it's fun. THIS IS NOT FUN because you are such a CREEP!

I will not be reading anymore of your condescending, know-everything posts. I've given you that you know what you're talking about; WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT!? So, go ahead and keep talking until you're blue in the face (which should not take very long at all). I will not see it, but other readers might (if they have not already fallen asleep with sheer boredom). Some might even be impressed, although once you've made your point, it becomes redundant and superfluous. You think I was being dismissive? Well, guess what? YOU'RE RIGHT! Your comments are SO AVERAGE, and while they are defendable, I read the same sort of thing everyday. You're boring the hell out me, Mr. Hugeless! So, keep on barking. Sorry, but you've bored me to death. I'm outta here! (I bet you keep posting, and posting, and posting...) LOL! LOL! LOL! CREEEEEEEEEP!

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/30/04 9:06am
Msg #14972

Re: Last Post

Don't leave! I think Hugh sincerely enjoyed your company. However, I admit things between the two of you got so far about my silly Billy Bob head, I cannot say for sure.

Just glad my writing comes from this notary's heart and is for my own insight and enjoyment rather than for points of debate.

Reply by HisHughness on 12/30/04 10:10am
Msg #14983

Re: Last Post

Brenda importunes:

***Don't leave! I think Hugh sincerely enjoyed your company***

It surely was fun, Brenda, though that last post of Anonymous sounded quite like my Beautiful & Talented Estranged Wife, especially the name-calling. Maybe there is some insight there into why the B&TEW is divorcing me?

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/30/04 11:33am
Msg #14998

Re: Last Post

Hugh mused: "It surely was fun, Brenda, though that last post of Anonymous sounded quite like my Beautiful & Talented Estranged Wife, especially the name-calling. Maybe there is some insight there into why the B&TEW is divorcing me?"

Hugh, putting on my psycho-doc frock: "More importantly, Hugh, what do YOU think?"

As to the other, I cannot figure out why a person doesn't just stop the conversation when they get tired of it on a forum.

It's the tried and true quickest way in the world to call a halt.

Stop participating. Period.

Result: End of one's participation in annoying, boring and/or tiresome conversation.

Reply by Eatha/PA on 12/30/04 2:27pm
Msg #15029

Re: Because they can't resist having the last word, Brenda!

Even if there are many, many, many, many, many last words. . .

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/29/04 2:05am
Msg #14802

Do you not understand how threaded message boards work? It should be blatantly obvious by the thread as to which message I was responding to. Here's a clue, it wasn't one of yours.

Reply by Anonymous on 12/29/04 2:36am
Msg #14805

Honestly, not really very up on message threads, so probably am replying incorrectly to some. Sorry. All these great messages from you and Mr. Hughley...could argue all night and quote opposing sources until I'm blue in the face, but I am soooo sleepy. going to bed for now. Let's all agree to argue more tomorrow, or we could simply agree to call it a draw and (Yaaaawwwwn) forget about it.

But...since you were commenting on the grammar, just want to point out that your sentence above would be more CORRECT if it were to read, "...as to which message it is to which I was responding," HOWEVER, you were CORRECT to use the more EFFECTIVE structure that happens to end in a preposition. This is an instance where the general rule should not be observed. So, nice work! ;)

It's been a blast. Love you all!
;)

Reply by Eatha/PA on 12/29/04 9:04am
Msg #14816

Well, it's either correct or it's not, Anonymous, it can't be "more CORRECT."

Reply by Anonymous on 12/29/04 1:06pm
Msg #14858

Not true. One role of the responsible writer is to use judgement when necessary. There are times when just about every rule of grammar can (and SHOULD) be broken in order to avoid confusion, clarify, or enhance in some way. In the above instance, the writer (CaliNotary) chose not to use the less persuasive syntax that would have adhered to the rule of not ending a sentence with a preposition; to do so would have been disruptive in that it would have caused the reader to focus more on the awkward wording (Oh! I see! He's doing this to avoid an ending preposition!) than on the intent of the sentence. In instances such as these, it is up to the writer to use their best judgement. Sometimes this means breaking rules.

Truth be told, however, if I were to concern myself with the grammatic posture of all email and chat I read, I would NEVER, EVER stop. It is a futile effort and one I undertook here only in order to respond to commentary from another reader (which turned out NOT to be directed to me, anyway!) LOL! I also want to point out that NORMALLY I do not even worry about MY OWN grammar all that much when it comes to email. Why? Because popular usage does not require or warrant it.
;)

Reply by Eatha/PA on 12/29/04 1:14pm
Msg #14860

Yes, well, now I see where you're coming from.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 12/29/04 1:21pm
Msg #14863

My favorite is a passage from the front of an English text book for 5th graders (way back in the olden days): "Never use a preposition to end a sentence with." That saying has stuck with me for many, many years.

I was taught, many years later, in a communications class, that the whole purpose of language is to effectively communicate to one another. Conversational language is what we speak, what most easily understand, and therefore, should be written that way. Syntax, grammar and spelling can be detrimental to conveying ideas and thoughts. Just think if Mark Twain wrote his stories syntactically and grammatically correct. The story would not be as enjoyable as it is.

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/29/04 1:41pm
Msg #14867

"Just think if Mark Twain wrote his stories syntactically and grammatically correct. The story would not be as enjoyable as it is."

I agree. The art of storytelling is a horse of a different color.

Reply by Anonymous on 12/29/04 2:39pm
Msg #14884

Personally, I think of grammar and punctuation as literary traffic cops. It is there to help point us in the right direction, but if there are too many cops on the road, confusion (and fear!) reigns. ;)

Just for fun (and to rather contradict my point above), I'd like to share something with you guys. I am currently reading "Eats, Shoots & Leaves," the best seller by Lynne Truss. She cites some awesome examples of the power of punctuation. One of my favorites: "Is that my dinner or the dogs?" versus "Is that my dinner or the dog's?" LOL! Ain't it amazing what a little ol' apostrophe can do!?

BTW, I HIGHLY recommend Ms. Truss' book. It's a fabulous read!

Reply by HisHughness on 12/29/04 2:50pm
Msg #14888

There is some disagreement as to whether an apostrophe is a mark of punctuation. Punctuation controls the flow of a sentence or sentences. The apostrophe, on the other hand, is associated with a word or a contraction of two words. By default, it is often identified as a punctuation mark, but only by default.

I am sorry, I do not have time now to refute -- note that I said refute, not rebut -- your earlier posting about infinitives and the splitting thereof. I will do so later. You should pay close heed.

Reply by HisHughness on 12/29/04 9:37am
Msg #14822

Anonymous blustered:

***Honestly, not really very up on message threads, so probably am replying incorrectly to some. Sorry. All these great messages from you and Mr. Hughley***

The name is HisHughness; "His Royal Hughness" to you. Ex- and estranged wives sometimes refer to me as "His Royal Hiney." They do not, however, seek my permission to do so, and, if sought, the entreaty would be denied. To date, that hasn't made any difference.

Reply by Anonymous on 12/29/04 12:53am
Msg #14784

LOL! LOL! You're sooo good, Anon2! This has turned fun at this point. Hate to admit that, but a couple of these people are sooo ridiculous, with their pitiful muscle flexing!!! LOL! They think, with all their mighty experience as notaries, that they are so impressive. Oh, my...I'm soooo impressed with their cuss words and all that experience. My, my...just makes me feel hot all over to be in the presence of such wondrous creatures. LOL!

Reply by Anonymous2 on 12/28/04 7:50pm
Msg #14678

Quite frankly... I also recieved tons of great advice from the msn notory chat website, people right off the bat told me who to work with and who was a bad payer a late payer,,, etc.

Everyone who responded also gave me tones of web sites to check out as well... and also places to contact these people again in the future, so if I ever needed help again, I could get it quickly without looking like a ding dong. Really not one wicked work was said (and please everyone reading this, don't harass the newbies!) If you can't locate this web site on your own.. let me know and I will help you!

I think this web site it is best to phrase your questions like you know whats going on!

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/28/04 9:05pm
Msg #14690

MSN Notary Website

* If you can't locate this web site on your own.. let me know and I will help you! *

If you don't mind posting the link, that would be great. I'd like to add it to my page of hang outs for notaries. You can also send it via email to [e-mail address].

I did a quick search, but have not found it.

I have located a few with only a few members, but cannot seem to find the one you are referring to.

Thanks - Brenda

Reply by colorless/AZ on 12/28/04 9:29pm
Msg #14700

Re: MSN Notary Website

http://partners.search.msn.com/partner.asp?CO=50&CY=en-us&FORM=COENUS&RS=CHECKED&cfg=COENUS&dom=
groups.msn.com&lng&q=notary&qap&v=1

There are about 10 groups for notary/signing agents on MSN

Reply by Karen/CA on 12/28/04 9:37pm
Msg #14703

Re: MSN Notary Website - Brenda

Try the following site: http://groups.msn.com/NotarySigningAgents

Someone just posted your website on the board as a resource for new notaries.

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/28/04 9:50pm
Msg #14708

Thank you! n/m

Reply by Karen/CA on 12/28/04 9:54pm
Msg #14709

Re: Thank you! n/m - Quite Welcome !!! nm

Reply by kgoetzel1 on 12/28/04 11:54pm
Msg #14764

Re: Thank you! n/m - Quite Welcome !!! nm

Okay... since this is so well read... can anyone tell me if they have worked with "Speedy Signing"? I have been dogged by them. I called from CA but they seem to be back east... can anyone advise??? Thanks!

Reply by colorless/AZ on 12/29/04 1:11am
Msg #14792

Re: Thank you! n/m - Quite Welcome !!! nm

Ever heard of Infostations, a Full Service Internet Service Provider? It looks like all 6 of you guys are posting from the same building using this IP service provider, are you AT Speedy Signings?

If you are, why not just ask what you really want to know, in an honest up front way?

I'm sure these people will give you honest answers if you're up front with them.

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/29/04 8:35pm
Msg #14923

Colorless...IPs

Ah ha...another IP watcher. Much rejoicing!!!! Hugh's gonna get upset. I just saw this...been busy today and have some things to finish tonight. I will catch up later. B

------------Colorless states what's below-------------

>>>Ever heard of Infostations, a Full Service Internet Service Provider? It looks like all 6 of you guys are posting from the same building using this IP service provider, are you AT Speedy Signings?

If you are, why not just ask what you really want to know, in an honest up front way?

I'm sure these people will give you honest answers if you're up front with them.<<<

Reply by BrendaTX on 12/29/04 8:46pm
Msg #14925

Re: Colorless...IPs

BTW - Cali and I kind of referred to this situation, but I just did not have the time last night or today to make the matches.

Note to Hugh: Hugh, this is why IPs can be important. It can indicate when Anons are just jerking us around for sport.

Nothing like a bunch of frenzied notaries trolled to entertain the Atari & Pong Gang.

New folks...post your questions but please understand that this is what the forum deals with. We really are all helpful but this happens to us a lot. Just be sincere and pretty soon you'll get so much help that you'll be hooked on helping too.

Reply by anonymous2 on 12/29/04 1:11am
Msg #14791

Re: MSN Notary Website

Try groups.msn.com/NotarySigningAgents.... you should know... you seem to know everything else!!!!

Reply by Anonymous on 12/29/04 1:27am
Msg #14794

Re: MSN Notary Website

LOL! LOL! LOL! Ahhhhh, anon2, I think I love ya...
;) (not gay, though, and I have a feeling we are both women...) LOL!