Posted by AngieCA on 12/14/04 2:25pm
Msg #13595
URGENT Need help
I went to a signing but the borrower had a California Driver's License w/ a hole punched through the expiration date. The laminate was peeling at the corners as well. He said that 1 -1/2 yrs ago he had 2 people use his identity (identity theft)and was having trouble getting a current license or State ID. ( a clue that if he couldn't get a valid ID from CA. Dept of Motor vehicle) He had a passport he said, but it was expired.
He also brought out a set of loan docs from World Savings that were due to expire on the 20th of December and then I came w/loan docs from another lender!!!
I told him until he could provide a valid ID I would not be able to notorize.
In reading the California notary Law Primer, it states that Notary may identify a document signer through any one of the identification documents listed beloe:
1.Be current or issued within the past five years; (even w/a hole punch thru the expiration date?)2) contain the document signer's photograph, personal descripition and signature and 3)bear a serial or other identifying number. It then goes on to state that a Ca. Driver's license or nondriver's ID issued by the Ca. Dept. of Motor Vehicles. (If accompanied by a current extension card, a driver's license issued more than five years ago is acceptable.) He didn't have a nondriver's ID w or w/o a current extension card.
I havent' notified the lender or the signing company yet...hopefully I did the right thing.
| Reply by colorless/AZ on 12/14/04 2:30pm
Msg #13599
Warning Will Robinson.....The hole was punched by a Motor Vehicles Employee (somewhere) to invalidate that ID when a new one was issued (either in Ca or the new issuing state.) I have one just like it, my Cali license got the hole uncerimoniously punched into it by MVD in AZ when I moved here from Cali.
| Reply by AngieCA on 12/14/04 2:36pm
Msg #13600
Ok, I've calmed down. What if I get two credible witness's with valid identifications?
I think that'll work.
| Reply by CaliNotary on 12/14/04 2:42pm
Msg #13602
Yes, that would work, and you actually should have attempted to do this before leaving the signing. That is as valid an identification method as a passport or driver license. You should probably offer to make the second trip for free, as your actions may have very well terminated the signing unnecessarily.
| Reply by AngieCA on 12/14/04 2:47pm
Msg #13606
Figured it out no need to reply
Yes, you are right. I will make the 2nd trip at no charge...Thanks!
| Reply by CaliNotary on 12/14/04 2:48pm
Msg #13607
And one more thing
While the expiration date had a hole punched through it, did you check the issue date on the license? "shall either be current or have been issued within five years" means that it could have an expired expiration date on it, yet be valid as a form of ID if it had been issued within the past 5 years.
You might have rejected a perfectly legal form of identification.
| Reply by AngieCa on 12/14/04 2:54pm
Msg #13610
Re: And one more thing
I know, I know......thanks again
| Reply by colorless on 12/14/04 2:46pm
Msg #13605
The usual: I'm not a lawyer, I cannot give legal advice, I'm not giving you advice, pay no attention to me, I have no idea what I'm talking about, use this information at your own risk, ....
If you still choose to listen... I would not use witnesses that are named on the doc anywhere, or use relatives of the signer(s), or use someone who has ANY interest in the transaction.
I think getting a fingerprint in CA is standard, if not I would ask for one, it they say no, then don't do it. I would get a print from everyone, even the dogs pawprint , if they have one.
| Reply by CaliNotary on 12/14/04 2:52pm
Msg #13609
Actually, you're pretty much on the money here:
(a) The acknowledgment of an instrument shall not be taken unless the officer taking it personally knows, or has satisfactory evidence that the person making the acknowledgment is, the individual who is described in and who executed the instrument.
(b) For purposes of this article, "personally knows" means having an acquaintance, derived from association with the individual in relation to other people and based upon a chain of circumstances surrounding the individual, which establishes the individual's identity with at least reasonable certainty.
(c) For the purposes of this section "satisfactory evidence" means the absence of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the person making the acknowledgment is not the individual he or she claims to be and any one of the following:
(1) The oath or affirmation of a credible witness personally known to the officer that the person making the acknowledgment is personally known to the witness and that each of the following are true:
(A) The person making the acknowledgment is the person named in the document.
(B) The person making the acknowledgment is personally known to the witness.
(C) That it is the reasonable belief of the witness that the circumstances of the person making the acknowledgment are such that it would be very difficult or impossible for that person to obtain another form of identification.
(D) The person making the acknowledgment does not possess any of the identification documents named in paragraphs (3) and (4).
(E) The witness does not have a financial interest in the document being acknowledged and is not named in the document.
(2) The oath or affirmation under penalty of perjury of two credible witnesses, whose identities are proven to the officer upon the presentation of satisfactory evidence, that each statement in paragraph (1) of this subdivision is true.
| Reply by PAW Notary Services on 12/14/04 3:17pm
Msg #13614
Florida has basically the same wording about identification. What troubles me is that so many California notaries use the "two credible witnesses" as a standard and commonly used form of identification of someone who simply has an expired license or the name doesn't match. The part that I have the most difficulty with, is item (C):
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(C) That it is the reasonable belief of the witness that the circumstances of the person making the acknowledgment are such that it would be very difficult or impossible for that person to obtain another form of identification.
----------------------------------------------------
This statement must be true per paragraph (2):
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(2) The oath or affirmation under penalty of perjury of two credible witnesses, whose identities are proven to the officer upon the presentation of satisfactory evidence, that each statement in paragraph (1) of this subdivision is true.
----------------------------------------------------
Getting a driver license or state issued ID is not "difficult or impossible" for most people. According to the FL SOS office, this section was instituted to be able to properly ID people who cannot obtain other ID due to being bed-ridden, housebound, or otherwise incapacitated in such a way as to prevent them from getting proper ID.
Also, for those who simply use two credible witnesses to validate names that don't match their ID, I respectfully submit that paragraph (D) and paragraphs (3) and (4) negate the use of two credible witnesses in this situation.
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(D) The person making the acknowledgment does not possess any of the identification documents named in paragraphs (3) and (4).
----------------------------------------------------
Paragraphs (3) and (4) simply list the allowable documents that can be used as identification, including a driver's license, state issued ID card, military ID card, passport and an inmate ID card if the person is in custody.
I am not trying to tell CA notaries how to do their job, just trying to understand how the wording in CA can be interpreted so different from that in FL, where the wording is almost identical.
| Reply by AngieCA on 12/14/04 3:27pm
Msg #13619
CaliNotary,Colorless
With regards to letter "E" in your response:
"The witness does not have a financial interest in the document being acknowledged and is not named in the document"
Okay...(don't slap me too hard on this one okay?) He did say he would have his brother-in-law and another family member come to the signing. So I will call him back and ask him whether they have a financial interest in the docs. For my own knowledge,what would those circumstances be (co-signer, heirs to the property)?
Therefore when I call him, I'll just ask him about the financial interest, period. I don't have to spell it out right (i.e., heirs, co-signers)?
I will administer the oath for Credible Identifying Witness, where they will state (amounst other things) " I swear or affirm that I (the credible witness) do not have a financial interest in the document, nor am I named in the document."
Then all should be covered, right?
Thanks to both of you.
| Reply by colorless/AZ on 12/14/04 3:36pm
Msg #13620
Re: CaliNotary,Colorless
You need to look up the definition of Credible Identifying Witness in your handbook to see if relatives are okay....... related by birth? related by marriage?
| Reply by AngieCA on 12/15/04 1:10am
Msg #13667
Family member ok for credible witness
I read up in the Notary Signing Agent Certification Course (for California)published by the NNA regarding family members used as credible witness. It does not state that a family member cannot be a credible witness. Here is what the California notary Primer says about Credible witnesses.
Qualifications. Every credible identifying witness must persoannly know the document signer. If there is only one credible identifying witness to identify the signer, that witness must be personally known by the Notary. If there are two credible identifying witnesses available to identify the signer, these witnesses may be identified through an acceptable form of ID. A credible identifying witness must not have an interest or be named in the document. A credible identifying witness must know that the signer has no ID and that it would be impractical to obtain the necessary ID.
I don't understand why Dept of Motor Vehicles does not issue him a State ID. He said he had a temporary ID card, but that it expired. The lender said that he came up against this before..but didn't elaborate on what he came up against. Also the lender said...well he just bought the house last year...so someone found his ID credible.offer
I don't feel comfortable, but from what I've read and per CaliNotary, if his license was issued w/in the last 5 years, even though punched with a hole punch and even though the lamination was coming off the corners, I have to notarize.
My appt is at 10:30am PST.
| Reply by Jon on 12/15/04 11:21am
Msg #13692
Re: Family member ok for credible witness
Angie,
Remember that losing your privilege to drive does not mean that you are no longer you. If the DL has a reasonable description of the signer, the picture looks like it is of the person, and the signature matches, you should have nothing to worry about. As notaries, we need to make sure that we do not "read" more into the law than what is actually there.
| Reply by PAW Notary Services on 12/15/04 12:29pm
Msg #13699
Re: Family member ok for credible witness
>>> As notaries, we need to make sure that we do not "read" more into the law than what is actually there. <<<
Very (or is it verri) true. However, the law is pretty clear that the license must be current or issued within the past 5 years. No way to misinterpret that.
However, if this is a loan package, the lender may not accept it because the USA Patriot Act simply states that the form of identification must be current and valid. No mention of expired but issued within the past 5 years, as allowed by many state laws.
| Reply by Jon on 12/15/04 5:46pm
Msg #13718
Re: Family member ok for credible witness
I agree, however, if the lender or title co. doesn't make that clear to me, then I have to assume that they want me to perform my duties according to state law. The Patriot Act, while the lender uses us to record the info, is really the responsibility of the lender. I simply make a notation on the ID verification form and send it back(assuming I was unable to reach anyone for clarification).
| Reply by Terri - CA on 12/15/04 8:05pm
Msg #13735
Re: Family member ok for credible witness
Angie, please remember the that California notary Primer is published by someone else other than the California Secretary of State. The best reference for you to use is the Notary Handbook that is available for download in PDF format from the California Secretary of States office.
Terri
Lancaster, CA
| Reply by Terri - CA on 12/15/04 8:02pm
Msg #13734
Actually, that expired license with the hole in it? If the issue date is less than 5 years ago, you can use it.
Terri
Lancaster, CA
| Reply by NewInKansas on 12/14/04 10:12pm
Msg #13651
Sounds Fishy
Obviously his D/L has been canceled...which, therefore, is no longer a valid identification. If he doesn't have a DMV issued ID (or extension), that is fishy. I would notify the lender immediately. He could be a criminal!
My 2 cents - you did the right thing.
| Reply by CaliNotary on 12/15/04 2:31am
Msg #13671
Re: Sounds Fishy
I've notarized an inmate in the LA county jail before. He definitely was a criminal. What's your point?
| Reply by NewInKansas on 12/15/04 6:31pm
Msg #13720
What's my point?
A criminal on the loose? What do you mean "what's my point". What responsible citizen would wonder what to do if they encounter a "wanted" person..... Duh! A person who is not entitled to have a government issued ID or passport shouldn't be applying for a home loan. And what do you think is your responsibility to the lender if you suspect their client is not "what" he says he is?
| Reply by CarolynCO on 12/15/04 8:29pm
Msg #13737
Re: What's my point?
A person is not necessarily a "wanted" person if they don't have a driver's license. It could have been revoked for any number of reasons -- driving record, behind in child support ... but that doesn't mean they are on the "run." As for passports, if someone never leaves or doesn't have plans on leaving the United States, they have no reason for a passport. You can buy a house without a passort. I didn't have a passport until I was in my 40's and our home was purchased well before then. I don't know for sure, but I also think you could probably purchase a home without a driver's license -- I know it's not like 100 years ago, but I'm sure there are still a few people who have never learned to drive -- and some that are driving have no business being on the road.
As for my responsibility to the lender if I suspect the Borrower is not "what" he says he is -- It's not my job or my responsibility to judge people or to make a conclusion that they are "wanted" or a "criminal on the loose." I am an impartial notary only. If the Borrower doesn't have an acceptable form of ID, that's what Witnesses are for.
As a legal secretary for 20+ years, I've encountered all sorts of guilty and innocent people who are being wrongfully charged or stereotyped because they fit a certain profile. The only signings I use my gut feelings are POA's when older people are concerned. As a notry/signing agent, you have responsibilities, but don't judge a person too harshly based on first impressions or your feelings.
| Reply by NewInKansas on 12/16/04 12:15am
Msg #13770
Re: What's my point?
People...people.... loosen up! I'm not judging anyone. I merely suggest that the lender should be notified that their client does not have a valid ID. Who cares if he doesn't have a driver's licence or a passport. Having a driver's license is a priviledge but an ID is mandatory. In my previous post when I said "He could be a criminal"...I was just trying to humor you all. It was a joke, really. Evidently, there's not much sense of humor here. It's not even full moon! Yikes!
As a notary, it makes no difference whatsoever if a borrower is an ex-murderer, an ex-convict, a rapist, or a wife beater....it's not our place to judge. My duty is to notorize the documents. I didn't suggest that I'd decline the signing because I think he's a criminal on the run, or because he is not licensed to drive. Certainly not because I was judging the "person too harshly based on first impressions of my feelings"
Ok, let me put it this way - Is it really a notary's responsibility if there are errors on the loan docs? No, but we tell ourselves that we should go the extra mile, do the best job we can, outside the scope of our responsibility. So, why wouldn't we inform the lender when their client does not have a valid govt. issued ID (as required by law), and that the only picture ID he had had been revoked or expired? When your D/L is revoked, for whatever reasons, perhaps, DUI charges or numerous citations, you can and MUST obtain an Identification Card. It is the law. Of course, you may still perform your notarial acts based on what is allowable in your state (i'm guessing it is different in other states).
In Kansas: A notarial officer has satisfactory evidence that a person is the person whose true signature is on a document if that person is (1) personally known to the notarial officer, (2) identified upon the oath or affirmation of a credible witness personally known to the notarial officer or (3) identified on the basis of identification documents. K.S.A. 53-503. In this situation, it seems that there is no satisfactory identification - a family member of the person is not an option.
| Reply by BrendaTX on 12/16/04 12:43am
Msg #13776
Interesting thread...
Just went back and took a look and...
The good ol' Texas Notary Laws State:
"If the signer is not personally known by the Notary Public or identified by a credible witness, the Notary Public must use an identification card issued by a governmental agency or a passport issued by the United States to identify the signer."
And all this time, I mentally put that word "valid" into the mix...and further, I interpreted this as "unexpired."
---------------
"Oh, the minutia and trivia of a notary forum...and what fun!" said Brenda, as she clapped her hands with glee.
--------------
But, earlier NIK said: "People...people.... loosen up!"
So, Brenda responded:
Lawsy, NIK! What do you mean????
This *is* loose for a bunch of notaries. I can hardly stand the excitement.
If we get much "looser" and festive, we may start having impressions of our stamps made into tattoos, and piercing our noses so we can wear tiny little notary stars in them with teensy little fountain pens dangling.
I suggest we all get ahold of ourselves--stop this insidious joking around, and get back to being serious before we start drinking our Stamper ink refills.
| Reply by CaliNotary on 12/16/04 4:07am
Msg #13780
Re: What's my point?
Trust me, I am QUITE glad to know that you were kidding. Sarcasm does not always translate well to written forums and since I'm not too familiar with your posting style yet it went right past me.
But now that I know you're a smartass, look out!
| Reply by CarolynCO on 12/16/04 8:24am
Msg #13785
Re: What's my point?
And what exactly are you going to do when you come across a driver's license where the person has been in an auto accident or has a disfiguring disease and looks nothing like his license -- what if they have lost their hair from the disease or rather the treatment? What if they are vain and have taken their body and face and gone under the knife? What if they have gained or lost an enormous amount of weight?
I can honestly, and can quite happily say that my driver's license and passport look nothing like me (if they did, I would consider going under the knife for an appearance change), and I'm certainly I was not denied purchasing a home because of my appearance on my ID. Passports and Colorado licenses now last for 10 years -- some people look the same year and year -- possibly even after 10, but what about the others?
When I do signings, I'm not reinacting the TV program "America's Most Wanted."
| Reply by CaliNotary on 12/15/04 8:59pm
Msg #13746
Re: What's my point?
You have GOT to be kidding. Do you really think it's our responsibility to determine somebody's criminal history just from their ID? How exactly are we supposed to determine whether we've encountered a "wanted" person anyway? You're going to get yourself in a lot of trouble if you make these gross leaps of logic while you're out doing loans. We're notaries, not bounty hunters.
The fact is, none of this is any of our concern or any of our business. We are there to identify the person who is signing the documents, period. Whatever your state's rules about identification are are what you need to follow without any of your ridiculolus assumptions thrown into the mix. If a person doesn't have an ID there could be a very good reason for it, none of which involve any sort of criminal behavior. If a person has a hole punched in the expiration date of his ID it's probably for the reason that was mentioned earlier in the thread, that he's applied for a license in a new state and the DMV punched the hole.
My responsibility to the lender is to do my job according to the laws of my state. If I can legally ID the person that's good enough for me. If the lender wants to know about a persons background they're not going to be stupid enough to expect me to provide it to them based on the ID a person has at the signing.
And please lose the comments like "duh" unless you actually have some freaking clue as to what you're talking about. Because it's quite clear that you don't in this case.
| Reply by BrendaTX on 12/15/04 10:46pm
Msg #13760
Re: What's my point?
----- About criminals & ID -----
Earlier this year I did a signing that where one of the co-borrowers was, in fact, a "criminal" on probation. Circumstances led me to believe he had done time recently.
His TDL was taped with clear packing tape to large brown envelope from a place of incarceration.
It was a valid-looking license, but the license was supposed to stay taped to the envelope for some reason...not sure why, but that was the case. From this, I assumed that it was not to be used for driving because he was keeping it in a file drawer and not in the car, or in his wallet.
Nonetheless, in my judgment, it was perfectly good for using to ID the guy.
Hopefully, this might add some insight to situations which we can encounter as *notaries.*
In said situation, I had no reason to question the validity of the driving license from a driving perspective, or what his current criminal status was, but only to note that it ID'ed him quite well for my purposes.
------------BTW, Cali -------------
Said CaliNotary - "We're notaries, not bounty hunters."
There you go stomping on my dreams again Cali...you knew I wanted to play a bounty hunter on tv.
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