Posted by Serina/VT on 12/6/04 7:13pm
Msg #12858

What do you do when documents are wrong?

Hi,

Having been a paralegal for 20 years, I know what a mortgauge deed and a note should look like. Recently I was at a closing where the husband and wife were "tenants in common" not "tenants by the entirerty"on the deed we were signing although she said she told them her name was not on the deed at the town offices. All the paperwork was only in the husbands name, the only time her name appeared on anything was on the mortgauge deed and then there was <B> no </B> place for her to sign. Today I get a call from the title company asking me to take the deed back to the wife and have her sign where they had HAND WRITTEN in a line and her name. They then proceeded to inquire why I hadn't done that at the signing! They also had the WRONG town on all the documents, and when I contacted the loan officer at the signing he insisted we go ahead and sign them anyways.

Isn't my job as a Notary to make sure the clients sign where the title companies ask for them to sign, not decide on my own where they should sign or alter documents? Wouldn't that be practicing law without a License?

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/6/04 8:00pm
Msg #12861

It is definitely NOT our job to decide which names go on the Deed of Trust. If a glaring mistake jumps out at you it would be appropriate to call the lender to get clarification, but if you can't get a hold of anybody I would just sign the docs as they are.

Reply by Mortgage Closers of San Antonio - Kenneth C Whitton Jr on 12/6/04 11:02pm
Msg #12871

I agree... If there is just some huge obvious mistake on the documents that can be easily caught, then I would notify the lender and/or title company per closing instructions and SS instructions. If you make those decisions on your own, you could be construed as practicing law without the proper license, a risk I would prefer not to take. When I find a mistake that seems obvious to me and cannot reach anyone, I document thoroughly so that when the title company catches their error, I can prove that it was not my fault and that they will be billed for the second trip.

Reply by Bobbi in CT on 12/7/04 12:06pm
Msg #12889

Even HUGE mistakes may be left "as is" ...

I agree with not "correcting" documents unless it is an obvious mistake. Always check with whoever sent you the assignment as soon as you can. Even Stupid, Obvious Mistakes are often left as is. I don't get paid enough to consider practicing law or arguing with lenders and title insurance company "experts."

For example: I had one where 2 days BEFORE the paper documents were shipped to me I notified the scheduler that they had the Town of the mortgaged property in the WRONG county. Borrowers mail is sent to post office in County A, however, Property physically located in County B (i.e., postal mailing address has different town & zip code than than property location zip code). Scheduler said title said County A is correct. I tried to help by politing stating, "No. I know where I live and this happens a lot. Property is not in this county. I can even fax you a Connecticut county map that shows which county each town is in." Scheduler and "title expert" (both in different states far far away) got mad at me. Said, " You are wrong. The title expert is right and you must leave it just as it is."

So ... I required a statement on letterhead that I was to leave Property in County A, which I got from scheduler. I stated I must correct notarization blocks to correct county (they weren't happy with that, but agreed to it). Borrowers wanted loan, agreed "Lender is an idiot. Lender is sending our mail to wrong address, but Post Office forward it to us. We have repeatedly corrected documents and told lender multiple times this is wrong and mailing address is wrong. At this point, leave it their way. It's their problem for not believing we know where we live." .... some other auditor's problem.

Reply by Serina/VT on 12/7/04 12:16pm
Msg #12890

Re: Even HUGE mistakes may be left "as is" ...

***I don't get paid enough to consider practicing law or arguing with lenders and title insurance company "experts".*** and *** It's their problem for not believing we know where we live." ***

Amen to that !

I was also told by the same Title company that VT was a community property state. I replied, Gee I wish you'd have told the judge that when I went for my divorce, since he didn't seem to know :P

Reply by Maureen/nh on 12/8/04 7:47am
Msg #12976

Serina, where are you...

I get quite a few calls for Windham county because I'm close to the border.

Reply by Serina/VT on 12/8/04 8:25am
Msg #12980

Re: Serina, where are you...

I live in Caldonia county, near St. Johnsbury

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 12/7/04 2:03pm
Msg #12894

Re: Even HUGE mistakes may be left "as is" ...

I too get a lot of grief about property location vs mailing address. We are still fairly rural here, but urbanization is creeping in. Two years ago we went through a "postal rezoning", where many new zip codes were added as well as existing ones redefined, and a new post office was created. Not too much of a problem right now, as "everybody" knows Wesley Chapel is still in Zephyrhills. Many legal descriptions still use Zehpyrhills, but the mailing address is now Wesley Chapel, as is newly titled property. But the biggest problem is that the town to our north (Dade City) actually services three counties. So the property may be physically located in Pasco, Hernando or Sumter county, while the mailing address is Dade City, which equates to Pasco County.

Reply by Bob-Chicago on 12/7/04 4:26pm
Msg #12903

Re: Even HUGE mistakes may be left "as is" ...

Bobbi , Ask the "title expert"if they know the meaning of the word "legal description"
That should have the correct county, or they searched the wrong property
As I understand it, the title guy's main function is to check the title of the PIQ
That would seem to include determining where it is located---DUH
Their previous job probably involved asking if you wanted fries with that order

Reply by Bobbi in CT on 12/7/04 7:24pm
Msg #12935

"Legal Description"

I mentioned checking the legal description. It seems the "title expert" wrote the legal description ... Lord knows what was used to draft it. It was included typed into the very small 3 inch space in the mortgage deed. Not much to read: right street address, right town, wrong county, right state, wrong zip code. Shortest legal description I have ever seen for that amount of money in over 20 years of title searching.

I was recently at a real property lawyers' dinner, which included lawyers for in-state title insurance offices, and mentioned this one. They got a good laugh out of it!! Seems in-state offices of national title insurance companies are getting miffed at out-of-state branches cutting out the local in-state office. Local offices are waiting for an opportunity to gloat when out-of-state branch has to correct errors (without getting paid because they made the error) or gets a claim.

Reply by HisHughness on 12/7/04 10:50pm
Msg #12954

Re: "Legal Description"

That isn't a legal description, at least not in any state with which I am acquainted. It is an address.

Reply by sue on 12/8/04 7:33am
Msg #12973

Re: "Legal Description"

in my area, we've still got a lot of legal descriptions -

...starting at a stone pile going 150 feet north to a dead oak tree thence along Peterson's land 200 feet to a chestnut grub...

Reply by Maureen/nh on 12/8/04 7:45am
Msg #12975

Re: "Legal Description"

We have stone walls a lot. I just did one that had rods for mesurement and a description of 7 to 8 acres, more or less.

Reply by Serina/VT on 12/8/04 8:28am
Msg #12981

Re: "Legal Description"

EVERY legal description in VT says "more or less" which drives the title company's batty.

On the topic od legal descriptions, I just did a closing where the entire page with the heading "legal description" was BLANK :P

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 12/8/04 12:38pm
Msg #13011

Re: "Legal Description"

>>> I just did a closing where the entire page with the heading "legal description" was BLANK :P
<<<

If the legal description is blank, and the mortgage reads that it is "attached and made a part hereto" (or words similar to that), how could you notarize the mortgage?

In FL, and many other states, you cannot notarize a blank or incomplete document. I have been told (by a retired attorney {not Hugh}), if a document references another document as being attached and/or made a part of, then the attachment must be present and not blank in order for the document to be notarized.

We have that problem a lot with title companies because they are used to attaching the legal description at the end. Unfortunately, mistakes do happen and the wrong legal description gets attached to the mortgage and recorded that way.

I know many of you will say that it's not our job to ensure the legal description is correct. I agree, however, it is prudent for the borrowers to ensure that it is correct. I always present the legal description to them to ensure that the correct property is being mortgaged.

Reply by Serina/VT on 12/8/04 1:36pm
Msg #13018

Re: "Legal Description"

***If the legal description is blank, and the mortgage reads that it is "attached and made a part hereto" (or words similar to that), how could you notarize the mortgage?***

I am not notarizing the mortgage, I am notarizing that the borrowers signature as an ackowledgement that the signing was their free act and deed. As quoted from 27 V.S.A. 341 an " acknowledgement means to admit, affirm, declare, testify, avow, confess or own as genuine. Notaries as notaries do not acknowledge; they take acknowledgements, meaning that they certify that an individual has acknowledged that an act of signing a document is his or her free act and deed. "

While I agree having an incorrect despcription or NO description is a no no on the title companies part, I am not paid to proof their docs. I am paid to make sure the borrowers sign in all the right places and return the docs to them. If the borrowers choose to sign a document that is incorrect or missing descriptions then that is their choice and not my place to offer them legal advice.

Reply by Terri - CA on 12/8/04 8:17pm
Msg #13052

Re: "Legal Description"

How would the borrower's know if any legal description provided is the correct one? How would I know it's the correct one? I recently had a mortgage company contact me for a resign of the Deed of Trust for a signing I did over a year ago. Why? because the wrong legal description was recorded with the Deed. Seems that the legal that was with the Deed was for their neighbor and I suspect that the neighbors were either refinancing or selling the propery and they found the lien. Nothing I or the borrowers could have done to make sure that the legal was correct. If the legal isn't there, I don't go looking for it because I know even if it was I wouldn't know if it was correct. But what I do know is that the document isn't going to record without it.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 12/8/04 9:54pm
Msg #13070

Re: "Legal Description"

>>> How would the borrower's know if any legal description provided is the correct one? How would I know it's the correct one? <<<

The borrower SHOULD know the legal description to their property. If they don't, they can check their tax bill or boundary survey.

As a notary, you don't care if it's the correct one. It's title's responsibility to ensure it is correct. From the notary's viewpoint, it just needs to be there or the notary cannot perform the notarization (in many states). FL statutes 117.107(10) explicitly states "A notary public many not notarize a signature on a document if the document is incomplete or blank."

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 12/8/04 10:08pm
Msg #13072

Re: "Legal Description"

>>> I am not notarizing the mortgage, I am notarizing that the borrowers signature ... <<<

This is true and I apologize for not be explicit in my description. The point is, that in some states, like Florida, we cannot notarize a signature on a document that is incomplete or blank. I was given some legal advice about documents that state "attached" or "made a part of" in their bodies that if the attachments were missing, then the document would be incomplete. Florida notaries are to scan the documents for completeness. We don't scan for correctness, as we more than likely haven't a clue to what is right or wrong.

Reply by Serina/VT on 12/9/04 5:22am
Msg #13091

Re: "Legal Description"

I have had many,many borrowers question me about certain things in their doc's and I always tell them to contact the loan officer and if that doesn't satisfy them then to take the doc's to an attorney within the 3 day right to cancel period.

Even being a paralegal and more than likely knowing the answer to the question, I can't give them legal advice. I recently did one signing 3 times before the borrowers were satisfied with the condition of the doc's. The loan officer never sent them copies before the signing so they could only go over them afterwards. Cost them a bundle

Reply by VA757Notary on 12/16/04 8:29am
Msg #13787

Re: "Legal Description"

Serina/VT:

I am completing a paralegal certification and doing mobile signings. Do you find a lot of cross over in what you learned as a paralegal in the mortgage/loan field?