Posted by Axdria/FL on 7/21/04 8:12pm
Msg #4782

Backdating

I am a little unsure whether I understand the concept backdating of documents.

I am new to the industry and I received my first signing last night. Upon arriving at the closing, the borrower did not want to sign because some figures were wrong, and I was advised by the title company that it was ok to leave.

The title company called today and asked me to do the closing again using the forms I printed. I pointed out that some forms were dated 7/20. I was told that since I was there last night that it would be ok to date the notarial certificate 7/20. I did not feel comfortable, so I refused the signing. I then consulted with another notary friend and I was told that it would be ok to date the notary certificates 7/20 because I had witnessed the borrower's signature the night before when he signed my notary log. If I had gone to the closing and did what was asked of me, would that be considered back dating?

Please clarify for me. Thanks much!

Reply by HisHughness on 7/21/04 8:25pm
Msg #4784

I don't think the operative date in this instance is the date the party signed the notary log; it is the date the party signed the document, which I gather did not happen. If you had witnessed the signature on the document on the 20th, then that is the appropriate date on the notarial certificate, regardless of the date the certificate itself is filled in, because fundamentally you are attesting to the party's signature, not your own.

Big Daddy PAW probably will have something to add, something not, I hope, too far at odds with what I just opined. Further, you probably can expect to hear from the Robin of Florida's Dynamic Notarial Duo, Sylvia_Fl.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 7/21/04 9:18pm
Msg #4789

Yes, Hughness, you're right, I do have something to add. My comments are obviously based on Florida law, but...

In FL, the notarial act has to be completed in the presence of the signer. Therefore, if you witnessed the signing on 7/20, but you completed the certificate on the 21st, you must use 7/21 in your certificate since that is the date the signer "appeared before you and acknowledged" their signature. For jurats, you have to place them under oath, and they must sign in your presence, after which you complete the jurat and stamp it. Again, since the act took place on the 21st, that's the date you must use.

Anybody that tells you to date it any other date than the date of the official act, is in violation of the law as well as you if you fulfill their desire.

Also, by Florida law, any document once signed by anybody cannot be altered. Any notarial certificate that is in error or missing an element cannot be corrected once the document is returned to the owner. A new document is mandated if anything in the document needs to be changed once the signer signs it. A new notarial certificate is required, including ALL the aspects of completing a notarial act, including the presence of the signer, if the certificate needs to be replaced.

(Did I do okay Hugh? Are you really Alfred?)
½ of the Dynamic FL Duo

Reply by HisHughness on 7/21/04 10:44pm
Msg #4791

I find nothing in Texas law that requires a certification to be completed in the presence of the signing party. Consequently, I >>think<< in my state that a witness can acknowledge his signature before you on the 20th, and you can certify that acknowledgement on the 21st and date the certificate on the 20th. In fact, my guess is that if you did put the date of the 21st, you would be in error because acknowledgements specifically say "acknowledged before me on the ____ day of ____, ___04." The same rationale, I think, should apply to jurats, because they state, "sworn to and subscribed before me on the ___ day of ____, ___04."

However, Texas law is vague to the point of uselessness on how a notary actually goes about his business, other than setting the fees and establishing the requirements for his journal. That can be good, in that it leaves lots of leeway to practice your craft, but it can be bad, because lots of leeway carries with it lots of uncertainty.

Enough of this mundane serious stuff. Anybody heard any good Bush jokes lately? Maybe that would bring Dennis back.

Reply by Derrick/MT on 7/22/04 10:18am
Msg #4798

How about a Kerry joke

Did you hear this years Presidential election already took place and it was a tie. Both canidates decided to resolve the election over three days of fishing in Montana (since we only have one electoral vote). The first day Bush was able to catch 5 fish and Kerry came back with none. Thinking it was a fluk Kerry vowed to try harder the next day. On the second day Bush came back with 15 fish and Kerry came back again with none. Al Gore thinking that Bush was cheating told Kerry to not even worry about fishing the next day but spy on Bush to expose his cheating. Well, day three ended and President Bush came back with 26 fish and as expected Kerry showed up with none. instantly Gore runs over to Kerry and asks him if Bush was cheating and Kerry responds by saying yes he was cheating, the reason he was catching so many fish is because he was cutting a hole in the ice.

Reply by HisHughness on 7/22/04 7:55pm
Msg #4833

Re: How about a Kerry joke

Good Lord, Derrick. If that's what you people in Montana think is a joke, I can see why we give you only one electoral vote. Tell any more like that, regardless of who the butt of the humor is, and we'll take away the one vote you >>do<< have.

Reply by Stephanie/CA on 7/23/04 6:15pm
Msg #4883

Re: How about a Kerry joke

Pleaseee....I can't stop laughing.

Hugh,
Thank you for a great laugh...your comment on Derrick's joke was funnier than the joke - so thank you.

Reply by Stephanie/CA on 7/23/04 6:15pm
Msg #4884

Re: How about a Kerry joke

Pleaseee....I can't stop laughing.

Hugh,
Thank you for a great laugh...your comment on Derrick's joke was funnier than the joke - so thank you.

Reply by Glena on 7/24/04 8:21pm
Msg #4926

Wrong and illegal!!! Don't do it!

Date on your certificate should reflect the date you notarized the signature. If they refused signing the documents yesterday but want to proceed with it today, date on the certificate should be today. If entry was already made on the journal, but the borrowers refused the signing, void the entry since you really did not notarize anything. Your notary friend is wrong. She is telling you to backdata, which is illegal.