Posted by enotarynj on 7/3/04 12:07am
Msg #3884

Notary Public v. Notary Signing Agent

What is the difference between these two terms? I am new to this... Thank you for understanding.

Reply by CA_Notary on 7/3/04 1:04am
Msg #3890

A notary public is strictly for verifying the identity of the person signing a document.

A signing agent is the person who goes through the entire loan package with the borrowers and makes sure everything is signed appropriately, notarized as necessary, and can give general explanations to the borrowers about what the documents they're signing are. It requires much more knowledge than simply being a notary does.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 7/3/04 11:23am
Msg #3904

I think your definition {A notary public is strictly for verifying the identity of the person signing a document} falls way short of what a notary public is. Here's my definition, as structured by the Governor's Office, State of Florida:

A notary public is a public officer appointed and commissioned by the Governor whose function is to administer oaths; to take acknowledgments of deeds and other instruments; to attest to or certify photocopies of certain documents; and to perform other duties specified by law. A notary public serves as an impartial witness to facilitate the workings of commerce and law by lending credibility to certain sensitive signed documents. When a document is notarized, the public can be assured that its signer is not an impostor and any contracting parties can be assured that the document they have signed - and no other - will have full force and effect.

I know that some functions that we as Florida notaries do, cannot be done in other states, but the fact that Notaries Public are public officials acting as impartial witnesses, deterring fraud, is a key element to the position. How we do that, is through proper identity of the signers. We are also authorized to place someone under oath to ensure that the information they provide is true and honest, subject to penalties of the state. Beyond that, many states differ in what a Notary Public can and cannot do and to what extent their powers reach.

Reply by enotarynj on 7/3/04 6:22pm
Msg #3918

I thought that the realtors and lawyers give general explanation to the borrowers about what the documents they need to sign... Well... so again do I need to take any special courses to become a Notary Signing Agent?

Reply by Roger/OH on 7/3/04 7:22pm
Msg #3919

Yes. While SAs don't get into detailed explanations about the documents, you need to be familiar with the kinds of docs involved in a signing. For starters, try the free training information on 50statenotary.com.

Reply by Gracie on 7/8/04 10:32am
Msg #4070

Notaries giving "general explanations to the borrowers about what the documents they're signing are" is what gets attorneys' knickers in a twist! That's why the movement towards attorney-only states - notaries engaging in the unauthorized practice of law.

Unless you are also a licensed closing agent (in some states) or an attorney, the only thing a notary can say IN EVERY STATE is, "This is the deed of trust. Sign here."

If the customer has any question about what a document means, the notary must say, "You must get that information from your lender."

Reply by HisHughness on 7/8/04 11:28am
Msg #4073

I respectfully (and quite timidly) disagree. I don't think a signing agent is confined to repeating what the title of the document is. The borrower can read that information himself, and if he can't, then the SA probably shouldn't be notarizing the documents.

I think an SA can explain what a document does, as stated in the document itself. A Deed of Trust, for example, can be explained as the document that gives the lender a security interest in the property, much like an automobile note, which in turn gives the lender the right to foreclose. Similarly with the note: An SA can explain that the note provides for X fixed-rate interest for X term on X principal borrowed, to be repaid at X per month.

What an SA should not do is go further and answer questions such as, "What if I..." The SA should not take a stated set of facts and apply them to the document and speculate on an outcome.

A warranty is a legal document. A salesman is not barred from explaining what the warranty on its face covers. So, too, with loan documents presented by a signing agent.

Reply by Gracie on 7/8/04 3:33pm
Msg #4090

A notary is not a salesman, he/she is a public official, an impartial witness. I'm wondering why a notary signing agent would feel compelled to explain to a customer what a document is at such a late stage in the process. The customer can also read that the note provides for X fixed-rate interest for X term on X principal borrowed, to be repaid at X per month, as well as read the title of the document.

Making sure the customer understands what documents they are signing and what is contained in the documents (interest rates, terms, etc.) is not the notary's job. It's the lender's job, the guy with the responsibility to do it. Why would a notary want to expose him- or herself to that kind of liability? What if the notary accidentally says "5%" interest rate instead of "5.5%" interest rate and the customer signs with that assumption? Geeez, what a nightmare.

Why "timidly" disagree, Mr. Hugh? I don't bite. . .might sound like I do, but I'm just seeing black ice in the road on this issue.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 7/8/04 5:17pm
Msg #4095

Correct, the notary is not a salesman. And the Signing Agent isn't either. You must remember that you wear TWO HATS when performing a witness signing. Not only are you notarizing the documents that need to be notarized, but you are a SIGNING AGENT too. As a Signing Agent, you job is to assist the borrower in understanding the purpose of the documents, not the specific details. Just like it is expected that the SA will be able to explain why and APR is different than the interest rate as shown on the note.

I submit that if you tell the borrower to call the lender (LO or broker) for information about what a document is for, then you will shortly be out of a job. You are hired to explain, in generic terms, the documents, loan process and why you can't explain the details of the documents, such as why the interest rate is such 'n such instead of such 'n such.

Reply by HisHughness on 7/8/04 8:36pm
Msg #4101

I'm not much interested in being a notary; in fact, in the past two years I have accepted only one non-loan-signing assignment, and that one fell through. As a signing agent, I think it is my responsibility to give the closing some context for the client. That's the reason I charge $125 for a closing, not the $30 I'm entitled to as a notary. If someone is inclined to sue, trust me, his lawyer is going to be looking in your direction along with everybody else who was part of the transaction; doesn't matter whether you explained or didn't explain, elucidated or delucidated.

Reply by sue on 7/8/04 8:55pm
Msg #4105

I think you also have to give a little more than 'sign here'. I don't even tell them specifics, not because I think it will come back on me but because I can't see that far. I generally point and say, 'this is your loan amount, your interest rate, payments begin, etc.' If you say 5% and it's 5.5% and they sign, I'm not sure how that could ever be your fault. You know, he said/she said and they do have eyes. I do agree that we shouldn't be selling the loans. I tell people that I am 'reviewing' with them what their loan officer should have already gone over but the loan officer doesn't go every complliance/e&o agreement, W-9, occupancy affidavit, etc.

Reply by Gracie on 7/9/04 9:17am
Msg #4129

Yeah, I see your points. It seems to me that you regard yourselves as signing agents first and notaries second and that staying in/building your signing agent business is important to you.

However, I respectfully (and timidly) disagree. I think as a notary signing agent all we should be doing is picking up docs, witnessing signatures, and delivering docs. Can't get into trouble that way, can't lose our professional perspective that way. You've let the lenders talk you into doing their jobs for them and assuming liability in doing so, and you're happy to do it because the lenders are happy to pay you $60 and charge the borrower $150 for it. Meanwhile, your commission is at risk, which will put you out of a job faster than a lawsuit could.

There are license and certification and education requirements for everyone throughout the entire real estate transaction process right up to the signing agent, and the only thing you need to be a signing agent is a notarial commission. What is wrong with that picture if you're going to be discussing rates and answering questions for the customer?! The complaint that most attorneys have with notary signing agents is that BECAUSE there are no license/certification/education requirements for them (and sometimes not even education requirements for notaries), many of them are messing up transactions to the point where it takes an attorney to straighten them out. And, as you well know, it takes only a couple of these situations to smear the mud on you, the good signing agents.

I don't think you can wear a second, signing agent hat if the first one is a notarial hat. I live in Pennsylvania, where the legislature just approved slot machines. The head of the Gambling Oversight Board for this region is also an investor in a group that is pursuing one of the gambling licenses. He said in the paper, "I can wear two hats and keep them separate." Maybe he can. Maybe you can. Either way, we'll see what shakes out.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 7/9/04 10:00am
Msg #4132

"I think as a notary signing agent all we should be doing is picking up docs, witnessing signatures, and delivering docs."

If that's the case, then you can only charge a standard notarial fee, plus travel, as you are not providing any value added service to the process. If that's all companies wanted us to do, then they would simply send the documents to the borrower, have them contact their local notary to notarize the handful of documents necessary, and then the borrower would return the docs. Wells Fargo (and a couple others) have tried this and imo, it is failing miserably because a notary that only says "sign here" and notarizes the documents does not assist the borrower in the what and where to sign. You need to do a lot more than just "Point and Sign".

"You've let the lenders talk you into doing their jobs for them and assuming liability in doing so, and you're happy to do it because the lenders are happy to pay you $60 and charge the borrower $150 for it. Meanwhile, your commission is at risk, which will put you out of a job faster than a lawsuit could."

Lenders and title companies DO expect more than just a point and sign signing agent. Further, for pages that are not notarized, you commission would not be at risk as you are NOT acting in your official capacity as a notary public, but in the sub-contractor role of a signing agent under contract to perform a certain job.

Technically, a signing agent does not have to be a notary. It's just that for convenience and logic, a signing agent should be, so the documents that need notarization can be done by the signing agent.

My wife is also a notary public, but not a signing agent. We have done signings together, where I was acting strictly as the signing agent, explaining the purpose of the documents, pointing to important parts that the borrower needs to see and understand. If the document needs notarizing, my wife notarizes them. It makes things go quicker, as I don't have to stop the "paper passing" to perform the notarial act.

If I screwed up a document in my role as a signing agent, would my commission be at risk. I don't think so, because I was not acting in that role. However, if a notarial was in error, that's a different story, and in the scenario above, my wife's commission would be on the line.

"I don't think you can wear a second, signing agent hat if the first one is a notarial hat."

We seem to disagree on this point. 99% of the papers you present to the borrower are not notarized. Therefore you cannot be acting as a notary when showing the borrower where to sign. So, if you're not acting in the official role of a notary public, what role are you performing? I submit it is the role of the Signing Agent. Nothing more, nothing less. Even when presenting a document such as mortgage or deed, the signing agent role allows you to explain what the purpose of the document is, highlight the necessary parts, like vesting, legal description, address, etc. Once signed, you perform the notarial act as a notary public. The two steps are separate and distinct.

Reply by Gracie on 7/9/04 10:07am
Msg #4134

Much to think about. Thanks, PAW!

Reply by Gracie on 7/9/04 10:11am
Msg #4135

Re: Notary Public v. Notary Signing Agent - P.S.

I like the way you and your wife work together, I think it keeps the hats on the right heads. That's what I do as a notary with a signing agent. We have our own little business so I do make more than the $2 allowable-by-law-per-notarial-act fee!

Reply by BrendaTX on 7/9/04 11:35am
Msg #4144


Maybe Texas notaries should charge by the notarial act. $6 x (up to 20, or so, in some packages) would be rather nice!

Seriously, I usually do at least 10 per refi package.

I did a vacationing Tucson, AZ family's package the other day and there were 2. I felt like I had not done my job!

Brenda

Reply by Roger/OH on 7/3/04 10:23am
Msg #3903

Simply put, not all notaries are signing agents, but all signing agents are notaries. The office of notary public dates back to ancient times, and is
a guardian of the public trust in every state and around the world. There are, unfortunately, too many examples of those who became a notary only because it was necessary to become a signing agent. It's essential to always remember you are a notary public FIRST and a signing agent second, and don't do anything as a signing agent that will jeopardize your commission as a notary.