Posted by Newbie_CA on 7/30/04 1:19pm
Msg #5247
Something I experienced
I had a situation arise the other night during a signing where the documents were drafted in this person's legal name and his i.d. was under his nickname (i.e. Jonathan and Johnny). I informed him that I needed to see "proper identification" with his full legal name. He looked at me as though I had handed him a dead squirrel or something. After stating to me that he never went by his full name so he didn't have anything with his full name, he said that he never had this problem in the past while having documents notarized.
I am a newbie, as you can tell from my forum alias, so I specifically remember that the i.d. must never be less than the name being notarized. It seems so small but I just didn't want to take any chances.
I normally tell the signer the name that appears on the docs and that their i.d. must match but in this case I was still waiting for the docs to be messengered to me.
Thank God he produced a passport with his full legal name giving me peace of mind and the ability to legally notarize his docs.
| Reply by redonthehead on 7/30/04 5:15pm
Msg #5249
You could have also gotten 2 credible witnesses for identification.
| Reply by Bob-Chicago on 7/30/04 5:46pm
Msg #5250
Caution RE:Credible Witness
Some on us East of Lalaland have different rules regarding "Credible witness"
Illinois requires that the credible witness be personally known to the notary. In other words, the witness may not be a neighbor, friend or relative of borrower not previously known by the notary. If known to the notary, then the credible witness must make their identification of the signer by oath or affirmation and only one such witness is required.
In the case of identification docs, Illinois only requires "identifcation documents"
The nature and validity of the id doc is, therefore, based on the good judgment of the notary.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/30/04 7:40pm
Msg #5258
Re: Caution RE:Credible Witness
And although Florida law and California law reads the same, some signing agents in California interpret it differently.
We can only use credible witnesses if it is impossible for the signer to get acceptable identification. And being inconvenient does not constitute impossible. If the person was in a nursing home or housebound, that would be a different story.
There was an excellent article on this very subject in the latest ASN newsletter.
Plus in the above case, the signer had identification, just wasn't the name on the docs, and as it turned out he had acceptable identification in the form of a passport.
As an aside, I had one borrower, hands me his ID, yep - it is him, looks exactly like him.
Then I go to write the information in my journal - it is a different first name! I ask him about it - "Oh, that is my twin brother's driving licence, we are identical" - ask where his licence is, and he says his brother had to run an errand and he had his license. He points out various photos in the house to show they are identical. I tell him I cannot accept that, I need his ID. His neighbour comes over for something, and the borrower tells me that his neighbour can swear he is who he says he is (wouldn't work anyway, as two credible witnesses are needed if they are being used). Neighbour says he will identify him, so I say "How long have you known David (name on ID) he said he had known him for years, and that is who was sitting there.
Sorry - borrower was Mark, not David! Neighbour would have lied for him if necessary.
| Reply by TJ_CA on 7/30/04 10:29pm
Msg #5269
Re: Caution RE:Credible Witness
--Inadvertently posted this under the wrong thread before -- sorry! -- TJ
I disagree in part that credible witnesses by law need to be known to a California notary before they can swear to the identity of a signer. If there is only ONE credible witness being used, then yes, they must be known to the Notary; however, if TWO are being used, then we need only establish their identities as we would anyone else. In addition, any credible witness used with respect to a Subscribing Witness must be known to the Notary as well.
"The subscribing witness must personally know the notary public, or if the subscribing witness does not personally know the notary, then his or her identity must be established, or proved, by a third party. That third party must personally know both the subscribing witness and the notary public. (Civil Code Section 1196) That third party is called a credible witness. Since the subscribing witness must be personally known by the notary public, or by one credible witness, paper identification cannot be used in establishing the subscribing witness' identity." (Civil Code Section 1196)
However, when TWO Credible Witnesses are used, they DO NOT need to be personally known to the Notary:
"(2) The oath or affirmation under penalty of perjury of two credible witnesses, WHOSE IDENTITIES ARE PROVEN TO THE OFFICER UPON THE PRESENTATION OF SATISFACTORY EVIDENCE [emphasis added], that each statement in paragraph (1) of this subdivision is true." (Civil Code Section § 1185)
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/31/04 12:59am
Msg #5272
Re: Caution RE:Credible Witness
TJ
When I stated that although Florida and California notary law on credible witnesses are virtually the same. I know California notaries (at least on another message board) will use credible witnesses if the signer does not have acceptable ID.
But the credible witness has to swear that the person is the person named in the document, that the person is personally known to the witness. That it is the reasonable belief of the witness that it is difficult or impossible for the person to obtain another form of identification. And the person does not possess any of the identification documents named in paragraphs 3 and 4.
And one of the first documents mentioned is a drivers license.
So, if the person has a drivers license than they do possess one of the identification documents mentioned. And I don't see how a credible witness could be used in this situation, just because the person had their drivers license issured in their "nickname". They have a drivers license!
I have seen posts, where the person's license had expired and the signing agent has posted they could use a credible witness because the drivers license was closed at the time of the signing.
Here in Florida, the wording is the same. But it is not always impossible for the person to get a valid ID - may be inconvenient, but unless they are physically unable to get out and get valid ID then I will not use credible witnesses. I have been told by the State that the credible witnesses were for cases where it is impossible for the signer to get ID - they are in hospital, nursing home, housebound etc.
This is what I meant when I said we interpret the law differently.
| Reply by TJ_CA on 7/31/04 3:42pm
Msg #5288
Re: Caution RE:Credible Witness
In your example, you state "where the person's license had expired" -- well that is covered by § 1185 where it states:
"(3) Reasonable reliance on the presentation to the officer of any one of the following, if the document is CURRENT ... [emphasis added]."
If the license has expired, then it is no longer current. Therefore, if they do NOT possess a current license and it would be "very difficult or impossible for that person to obtain another form of identification" within the time frame necessary to complete the notarization, then credible witnesses would be the way to go. It is open to interpretation because the factor of "time" is not mentioned in the statute. It does not state that it is very difficult or impossible EVER nor does it say very difficult RIGHT NOW. So if the signing is taking place at 8pm on a Saturday night and the signer has an expired license, then I would say using credible witnesses would fall within the purview of the statute.
JMHO. :-)
| Reply by Jon on 8/1/04 3:50am
Msg #5309
Re: Caution RE:Credible Witness
I have called the CA SOS about this before and that is their view also.
You said:
"(3) Reasonable reliance on the presentation to the officer of any one of the following, if the document is CURRENT ... [emphasis added]."
The handbook continues to say "...or have been issued within five years..." An expired license is OK, provide the issue date is within five years.
| Reply by Joan-OH on 7/30/04 7:57pm
Msg #5260
What is with the DMV!!!
To get a driver's license you have to show a birth certificate. Why does the BMV allow people to put their nicknames on their legal ID!!!! I had a guy named Robert once. His ID said Kenny. I asked if that was his middle name and he said "no, but everybody calls me Kenny"
So what did he do? Go to the DMV to get his license, hands the clerk his Birth Certificate & SS card and say "Everyone calls me Kenny. Can you put that on my DL?" "WHY SURE, NO REASON NOT TO"
These are GOVERNMENT ISSUED STATE IDENTIFICATION CARDS!!!! Does the DMV have no procedures?! My blood pressure is going up just thinking of the stupidity! GRRRRR!!!
| Reply by LorraineK/FL on 7/30/04 8:59pm
Msg #5261
Re: What is with the DMV!!!
I don't work for DMV, but I do work for Vital Statistics where you get birth records. Since 911 we've been having a ton of people being rejected by DMV because they cant produce birth records. Lots of people, mostly older Americans dont have birth records, and are in a quandry because now DMV has to get them. I cant say for sure, but I think in the past they may have been a little lax regarding what they accepted to issue a DL. Case in point, I think that there were like 50 something drivers lic. issued to those handful of terrorists that hit the world trade center
I spoke to a SS official last week who indicated that at one point in time all that was needed to get a SS card was a bill with your name on it...that has changed.
For People who have been born in the last few years most have had social security numbers automatically enumerated - which means their ss card will be in the same name as their birth records...so, the good news is it will probably be more uniform in the future.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/30/04 10:11pm
Msg #5266
Re: What is with the DMV!!!
When I got my drivers license, I took my ID - my green card and military ID card.
They asked me for my maiden name. I told them. They said that was what had to go on my drivers license as my middle name - I didn't take any ID with my maiden name on it! But, they put my maiden name on for my middle name. I finally got that changed when I last renewed my license!
| Reply by LorraineK/FL on 7/30/04 10:17pm
Msg #5268
Re: What is with the DMV!!!
I got my license a long time ago and they did the same with my maiden name. I want to change mine too. Thanks for the info, next renewal...I'm changing too.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/31/04 12:46am
Msg #5271
Re: What is with the DMV!!!
Yes, just have to take some ID with you with the correct middle name.
I took my citizenship certificate.
| Reply by Jon on 7/31/04 7:12am
Msg #5273
Re: What is with the DMV!!!
The DMV is now linked with the S.S. Admin. and will not issue a DL with a name that is different from your name of record with S.S.
| Reply by Joan-OH on 7/31/04 7:55am
Msg #5274
Re: What is with the DMV!!!
That may very well be, but this guy had Kenny on his SS card! I'm not kidding. He was born a Robert but somehow had them put Kenny on his SS card. It didn't go from Robert > Bob, Or Timothy > Tim. It went from Robert to Kenny with no legal name change! Keep in mind, Kenny is not his middle name, just "what everyone calls him"
It had been this way for years, but guess what? He titled his house in Robert. I don't know how as he had no legal ID saying he was Robert.
Joan-OH
| Reply by PAW Notary Services on 7/31/04 2:00pm
Msg #5282
Re: What is with the DMV!!!
Jon, what state DMV links to the SSA? Certainly not Florida (unless it just started in the past couple of months). I have noticed even with recently issued drivers licenses, the names on the DL do not match the name on the SSA card.
| Reply by TJ_CA on 7/31/04 3:46pm
Msg #5289
Re: What is with the DMV!!!
I believe it certainly is here in California. My friend went to renew her driver's license and was denied because her date of birth on her driver's license did not match her SS records. There was a discrepancy because when she came to this country as a child someone put the wrong DOB for her in the translation but when she got her first driver's license she had put the correct date. Years later now, she had to get a new certified birth record from her country that she hasn't even lived in for 30 years (had to go through Embassy's etc.) to make all the records match and just to get her driver's license renewed which she's had for 20 years.
| Reply by Jon on 8/1/04 3:43am
Msg #5308
Re: What is with the DMV!!!
CA. When my wife went to renew her DL, she was unable to because she had not changed her SS # to her married name. Her previous DL had her married name, but they now link with the SSA. She had to go to SS office and change her name, then go back to get the DL. The system is set up to reject the request if the info doesn't match.
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