Posted by JHS/Fl on 6/29/04 1:52pm
Msg #3670

Ethical or Not

An out of state Title company called me to do a signing, I have never worked for them. Accepted it for $140. Turned out to be a first and second mort. total pages w/borrower copy 315 pages. Borrowers decided not to sign. Now Title company says no sign no pay. All I request was something to cover my time, paper, and toner. Now since I have 300 plus pages with info on them, and their UPS acct# would it be ok to send them back all the paperwork and let them pay shipping and shred docs. Any opinions.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/29/04 2:06pm
Msg #3671

1. Send them the documents. Do not put your address on the waybill. Send them first the originals, then send the copies under separate UPS cover.

2. If the company has a toll-free fax number, set aside the first night of each month hereafter to devote to this company. At midnight, fax them an invoice. With the invoice, include as many blank sheets as your fax machine will hold. FAX those blank pages. As the machine is feeding in the last page, put in another handfull. Continue until you have faxed them 315 pages.

3. Go to bed, satisfied.

4. Do the same thing the next month, and the month thereafter, and....

An active imagination and having too much time on one's hands can be a lethal combination.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 6/29/04 2:17pm
Msg #3672

Since You Have the Attorney Background, Hugh...

...couldn't this type of strategy backfire if the company decided to prosecute for harassment? If I remember correctly, aren't there some laws in place designed to prevent unsolicited faxes...especially with the vast number you're speaking of here? All in all, you'd know better than I.

Reply by Derrick/MT on 6/29/04 3:38pm
Msg #3677

I love this idea. Kind of like the idea of when you get unsolited junk mail with a return evelope and glueing this to a cinder block and dropping it in the mail.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/29/04 4:01pm
Msg #3679

The NRA has several cinder blocks with my name on them.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/29/04 4:05pm
Msg #3681

Derrick
The thing to do with all the junk mail, is take the stack of junk mail, if you have, say a visa app for company A - with the prepaid envelope to return the app, take it and put it in one of the other return envelopes from a piece of different junk mail, and send it on. Carry on until you have got the whole stack of junk mail going to the different companies, and letting them eat the postage.

Or take the piece of junk mail, shred it in tiny tiny pieces, put it in the return envelope and return it to them

Let them get the junk mail:)

Reply by HisHughness on 6/29/04 4:30pm
Msg #3684

I love it when really fiendish imaginations go to work.

One time I was headed to court, pinstripe suit, red power tie, briefcase & all, when out of the corner of my eye I spotted a panhandler headed my way. Before he could say a word, I asked, "Say, fellow, I need to get to the courthouse in Decatur and I'm completely tapped out. Could you please help me out with half a dollar for bus fare?" He actually offered a quarter, which I refused, ostensibly because it wouldn't be enough.

Reply by Sharon on 7/3/04 3:39pm
Msg #3914

What would be better would be to Fax them Black pages ( you could turn off your fax header so they wouln't know where they come from) use their toner and paper. Then POST who they are so we all know to never accept an assignment from them.

Reply by Bob-CHicago on 6/29/04 6:49pm
Msg #3688

Juvenile and Petty

Those are the words that come to mind
Were you aware of their "no sign - no pay" policy?
Did you ask before printing 300+ pages?
If you have the proper equipment to be in this business, your out of pocket cost was less than $10
Did you go to the signing , or did bwr cancel prior to appt.
You are conducting a business. School pranks are long gone

Reply by HisHughness on 6/29/04 7:32pm
Msg #3691

Re: Juvenile and Petty

Thank you for the characterization, Bob.

As a child, did you also always see fireflies as just more bugs, never letting your imagination roam over other possibilities , even if you knew down inside the possibilities were really impossibilities? God help us all when being a child is equated with being petty.

And just for the record: As a consultant, I usually bill my time at $60 an hour; my last RFP went out at $125 an hour. Any participant on this board certainly is worth close to $60 an hour. Out of pocket paper costs doesn't begin to touch the cost in time -- and lost business opportunity from other companies -- incurred on behalf of a company that would pull a stunt like this one did.

Would I feel justified, gratified, and even exulted in making it sting for such jokers? In a heartbeat. Would I actually do it, just to make them pay? Probably not -- unless, and this is a big unless -- I had good reason to believe it would jar my fee out of them. Then I would regard it simply as another collection tactic, and an innovative and creative one at that. And I wouldn't hesitate to employ it.

Reply by sue on 6/30/04 7:23am
Msg #3702

Re: Juvenile and Petty

I employed this tactic in a modified form one time. I had the bulk of the paperwork signed before the borrowers decided to stop (can't remember why any longer). But, the company was one that wanted to pay me $25 or some such low fee and I told them I needed full fee as I had been there quite a while, I was there longer than if they had signed, etc. Anyway, they fussed so I sent them via fax the entire loan package (yes, I know some of you will feel that's wrong because of privacy issues) and then about 3/4 of the way through I started over again inserting a sheet that I thought the machine had jammed. I did get my $$$ and never heard from them again.

p.s. some of you will wonder - on a no sign, unless specifically instructed, I keep the paperwork until I receive payment

Reply by Bob-Chicago on 6/30/04 12:55pm
Msg #3724

My comment stands

The fact tha you never heard from them again is significant
I wonder who else you may have never heard from again if they spread the word on you to others in the business.
This is not college when putting vaseline on someones door knob after they tied you socks in knots was a real stitch. This is the real world of business. You don't get to buy them a beer and laugh it off.
I like to get paid in full for all signings also.
Sometimes, however, you have to bite the bullet, and make it up on future work.
I have several customers (yes that is what they are) , that pay only a trip fee on "no signs" The volume I do with them, however, makes up for the occaisional no sign.
If I get a large volume of no signs from a specific customer , which sometimes happens with lenders who speciialize in the credit challenged, then I cut a new deal with them, or , in extreme cases, might stop taking assignments. THis has not happened yet.
As rates increase, B/C paper and HELOCS will form a larger and larger part of our business
There is nothing wrong with going over the highlights of the loan terms with the bwr during your confirmation call if you think that there might be a problem . If they have questions or problems, then they can call the L/O before you go to the appt

Reply by HisHughness on 6/30/04 1:16pm
Msg #3725

Re: My comment stands

As does my comment, Bob: If I thought there was a reasonable chance that what I humorously proposed would succeed in collecting my fee, I would have no qualms about it. Just as I would have no qualms employing other, more traditional methods, such as a report to the Better Business Bureau, notification of the deadbeat's actions to any lenders or title companies I know the deadbeat represents, threats from a lawyer, a small claims court suit, or whatever. As a businessman, sometimes I have to suck it up. That doesn't mean I have to roll over and die if there are reasonable avenues available to enforce my just fees.

I value my time, and I'm not really interested in further business from a company that holds it in such low esteem.

Reply by sue on 6/30/04 1:26pm
Msg #3726

Re: My comment stands

I certainly didn't care if this company ever called me again as I would not have accepted an order from them. If I thought I wanted to possibly work with them again I would never have done what I did. as to them spreading the word, I don't care what cheapo signing services tell each other as I have more than enough business without them.

some time ago, I moved away from signing services to title companies directly and my average fee more than doubled (almost tripled actually). for the companies that pay me $100+ per order I too work for no fee when the loan doesn't fund. a lot of notaries refuse to work for these companies but I don't because I try look at the big picture. but, if I am going to work for a service at $50 or $60 per order, I want paid in full the minute I walk out the door.

Reply by Bob-CHicago on 7/1/04 1:03am
Msg #3783

Whoa Hugh and Sue

My initial post on this thread was in reply to the post of JHS/Fl, (Whoever that may be)
There was nothing in the post that indicated that JHS had done anyting more than print some docs. Further no discussion of what the stated policy of the Title Co may be.
I know that Hugh's first post was, at least partly, in jest.
There was no discussion in my initial post as to collecting a liquidated debt.
That being said, I still do not believe that guerilla tactics have a proper place in a business relationship with a customer. My point is that we are business people and shold conduct ourselves in a businesslike and professional matter.
If we agree to disagree on this point, I can certainly deal with it.
In the words of Forrest Gump " that's all that I have to say about that "(at least for now.)

Reply by HisHughness on 7/1/04 1:33am
Msg #3784

Re: Whoa Hugh and Sue

I don't know what you're trying to pull, Bob-Chicago, but you need to be aware right up front that this forum is no place for that "reason with me" stuff. You want rationality, you want harmonious discourse, go read some Descartes -- or better yet, take in a Blackhawks game. No accomodating, gracious pantywaists allowed in here.

Reply by HisHughness on 7/1/04 1:33am
Msg #3785

Re: Whoa Hugh and Sue

I don't know what you're trying to pull, Bob-Chicago, but you need to be aware right up front that this forum is no place for that "reason with me" stuff. You want rationality, you want harmonious discourse, go read some Descartes -- or better yet, take in a Blackhawks game. No accomodating, gracious pantywaists allowed in here.