Posted by annonymous on 6/3/04 1:18pm
Msg #2656

What would you do?

Please bare with me, this is a little long, but interesting. Would love to hear comments from the notary community, in which this notary represents...though we understand she falls under the one bad apple role!

Scenario:

Notary "A" was called to do a signing. They were unavailable. Notary "B" was the next notary called. They were available. Signing was completed. Check was received from Escrow and submitted to Account's Payable. When file was pulled, Account's Payable incorrectly paid Notary "A" the $80 fee.

When misstake was recognized, a check immediately went out to Notary "B" and a phone call placed to Notary "A" regarding the clerical error and recovery of the $80.

Notary "A" first stated that she had not received a check for this amount. She stated that she had only done 3 signings and had recited each one to me in detail. We had already called our bank and found out that the check was cashed and were given, over the phone, the bank that cashed the check. We requested a front and back copy of the check from our bank. When this was mentioned to Notary "A", she said she did not bank at this bank. Because we did not want to be in the position of calling someone a liar, we told the notary that we would have a copy of the check in our hands tomorrow and would be phoning the bank, and perhaps she should be concerned about identity theft. I suggested she even pull her credit report to make sure there was not any illegal activity going on.

Because the town that Notary "A" lives in is so small, everyone has a P.O. Box instead of a regular mail box at their home. The bank would have known the depositor.

When we had the hard copy of the check we faxed it to Notary "A" asking if it looked like her signature. This is what we received in response via fax:

Date
Our name and address

To Whom it May Concern:

This letter is in response to the many telephone inquires regarding check #20759 for the amount of $80.00. I received a fax copy of the check today and would like to advise that is my signature on the back of the check. The check was deposited into my bank account on the date specified.

I do many notaries for a variety of different companies and receive checks on a scattered basis. It is difficult to calculate which check was received for which signing as the different notary agencies pay irregularly. So when the check was received from your company, I assumed it was money owed to me from a signing I had completed and deposited the money into my account for services rendered. Many times I am contacted to do a closing from a different company that actually sends the check thus making it near impossible to determine if receiving a check was a clerical error or sent for services rendered.

In this case, your company sent a check to me as a clerical error that your company was solely responsible for making. Your records indicate that I have never been assigned a closing from your company and that you purchased my information from another notary company. There was no intent on my behalf to defraud your company of any money, therefore I suggest you just chuck the $80.00 sent to me as a loss and learn better bookkeeping skills to prevent this from happening in the future. If you find it necessary not to assign me any closings or notaries in the future, so be it, traveling to do the signings is hardly worth the time and trouble anyhow. I have checked with local law enforcement and reviewed the state statures and I am under the impression that I have violated no criminal laws. I have not met any of the culpable mental states required to commit any type of theft or fraud, therefore your legal options would be to file suit against me in a local civil court. The filing fees in local civil courts far exceed the $80.00 sent to me as a clerical error by your company, so I reiterate my suggestion to call it a loss and move ahead.

If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,
Cathy Welch
Notary Public
806 537-3543


After receipt of this fax, I called the notary. She was extremely hostile on the phone. We actually got her name from the Notary Rotary Search.

Harry and I have emailed one another, and he cannot be placed in the position of pulling a notary off unless there is a civil case brought and won against her. Harry said they'd be developing a site for Signing Companies to rate notaries.

At this point, if we move forward legally it would not make economic sense. There, of course, is the ethical and principle side that makes it hard not to pursue.

Hugh, I'd really be interested in your comments, since you are an attorney. We really don't have much to go by other than her admission of taking money not owed to her.

Thoughts?

Reply by Anonymous on 6/3/04 1:29pm
Msg #2657

Have you considered alerting her state's notary division to her unethical behaviour? Here witnesses stating your of good moral character is a condition of the notarial application process.

Reply by CA_Notary on 6/3/04 1:45pm
Msg #2660

I don't think what she did is any more unethical than your leaving her name and phone number in the reply that you posted. Not cool at all, and I'm sure you'll state it was an "accident" even though you did remember to delete your own personal information.

It's 80 bucks. You screwed up. Suck it up and move on. It sounds like you've already put more than 80 bucks worth of time and effort into getting it back, how much more are you willing to throw away?

Reply by Anonymous on 6/3/04 1:43pm
Msg #2659

Sound to me like poor Cathy has been burned once to often by dishonest signing services and is looking for some payback...

Reply by Ogdoad on 6/3/04 1:47pm
Msg #2662

As HisHughness said earlier about about notaries not getting paid, "Suck it up and chalk it up to the cost of doing business".

Reply by Notary on 6/3/04 2:12pm
Msg #2667


You might need to cut your losses on this deal. I don't believe everything I read or hear. Maybe it was a simple mistake maybe it wasn't. But to keep you in the clear you shouldn't have mentioned her name and number for ohters to see. You are harming her business.

Reply by anonymous on 6/3/04 2:23pm
Msg #2668

Harming a thiefs business??? What would have happened if the notary company didn't pay the other notary until the money was sent back from the first notary? Would you still be sympathetic to this notary who kept money that wasn't hers?

As a notary, I am appalled at the behavior of this notary.

Reply by Ogdoad on 6/3/04 2:28pm
Msg #2669

Imagine that a signing company witholding payment untill theyr'e paid. Shhyeahhh - I'm sure that never happens!

Reply by anonymous on 6/3/04 2:39pm
Msg #2670

That's exactly my point!! If the SS held off sending the check to the correct notary until the other notary returned what wasn't rightfully hers, and YOU were the second notary, would you then be so flipant with your attitude towards the SS??

When reading this post, I am amazed at the attitude of many of the notaries. It's like you are condoning the actions of this notary to get back at a SS. Karma's a tricky thing...you never know when it's going to get you. The high road is the right course to take no matter what your attitude may be to SS's.

Reply by CA_Notary on 6/3/04 2:51pm
Msg #2672

You do realize that one of the good things about this board is that it allows us to vent our frustrations? Yes, in a perfect world we would all be horrified at the first notary. In reality, we're human, most of us have had some unsavory encounters with signing services, and that makes it difficult (for me at least) to have too much sympathy for the SS since it was their screw up.

It doesn't mean I condone the actions of the first notary, it simply means a part of me enjoys seeing a SS get a bit of karma of their own, espcially since it's of their own making.

Of course, my judgement could be clouded by the fact that I've made 2 phone calls this morning to 2 different companies who have underpaid me for signings in April :)

Reply by anonymous on 6/3/04 5:03pm
Msg #2680

This is a bad situation, though it's hard to believe notary A acting in such a way: the fact is there is nothing you can do without investing more time & money than is in question. However the ss was wrong in posting the notaries name in hopes of some sort of retaliation. I was sympathetic until the point where you metioned the notaries name. If you were truly interested in just hearing our opinions the name factor would have been omitted just like your own.

Reply by CA_Notary on 6/3/04 2:43pm
Msg #2671

If the signing company didn't pay the other notary over something that was completetly THEIR OWN mistake that would be pretty appalling as well.

I don't believe the other notary for a minute. The whole story about how it's almost impossible to keep track of which signings are paid or not is a big steaming pile of BS. She decided that 80 bucks was worth more than any future business from this signing company. That says something about the signing service right there, doesn't it? I wouldn't give up unlimited future business from most of my companies for 80 bucks. But there are definitely a few that I won't cry about if I never hear from them again.

IMO the company was foolish to pursue this to the level they did. They should have made one simple phone call, asked her to return the money, and hoped for the best. That they've gone to such ridiculous levels to recover $80 tells me that they're a penny pinching tightwad company and that's probably why the first Notary had no qualms about keeping the $80.

Ultimately this looks like a case of karma. A signing service that takes advantage of it's notaries finally got a taste of it's own medicine.

Reply by JYHoward on 6/3/04 2:56pm
Msg #2673

I seem to learn something new everyday on this board. I believe the signing company will have to call it a loss. However, if I'm not mistaken to become a notary public we take a sworn oath to be honest and ethical. Ill gotten gain will never get you far. How does that old saying go "everything that goes around comes back." If the notary hasn't been burned in the past then her day is coming and if she has two wrongs don't make it right. I do believe that the signing company stooped to her level by mentioning her name and number.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 6/3/04 3:24pm
Msg #2675

To CA_Notary, who said, "... That they've gone to such ridiculous levels to recover $80 tells me that they're a penny pinching tightwad company ..."

I don't see it that way at all. I'm in business and I have principals and principles. Trust me, it's not the $80 dollars that is getting all the attention. I am owed money, in one case less than $20 dollars and you bet I am taking every avenue to recover that money. It may (and probably will) cost me more to get it than it's monetary worth, but I guarantee you that the company who owes me will not forget the resources and tenacity of this company.

To me, this is simply a case of theft. Stealing takes on many forms and I too, do not buy the excuse that the notary didn't know if she deserved the money or not.

Finally, I certainly would not assume that this is a company "that takes advantage of it's notaries". This is their business and they are doing what business practices dictate.

Reply by CA_Notary on 6/3/04 3:39pm
Msg #2676

You are absolutely right about principals and principles. I have invested significant amounts of time and frustration dealing with signing services over a principle issue in the past.

In this particular case however, it is the signing service that screwed up. Yes, the notary should not have played dumb and cashed the check anyway. Of course she should have returned it. But she didn't, and the reason that she even had the check in the first place is because the signing service screwed up, plain and simple.

Did you notice that the original poster conveniently left the notaries name and phone number in her original post? Do you really think that was done for any reason other than revenge on their part? I'm sure they're hoping she'll get a few unsavory phone calls as a result.

Above all, business practices dictate that you don't throw good money after bad. Some principles are definitely worth fighting for. "We screwed up and don't want to take responsibility for it" is not one of those principles.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/3/04 5:36pm
Msg #2689

I am hard-pressed to believe the responses I have seen to the positing by the signing service re: the missent check.

First, the SS did everything it reasonably should to try to recover the money. It did indeed post the signing agent's name -- and I don't thing the SS needs to make excuses for doing that -- but only after the signing agent acknowledged that she had converted money that was not hers and that she intended to do nothing to set matters aright. At that point, it's Katy, bar the door, and the SS is waranted in spamming her name and phone number all over the Internet, as far as I'm concerned.

Second, the SS made a clerical error that damaged no one. The signing agent didn't even have to invest in a 37-cent stamp to take care of the matter; all she had to do was tear up the check. She, on the other hand, has committed a criminal offense, acknowledges that it was wrong, and says, essentially, "Yah yah yah yah, do something about it if you can."

For those who have said that the SS got what it had coming, I hope that you comport yourself better in other areas and, if not, I surely hope the signing agent profession is not judged by your conduct in this case. If so, we'll never be judged any better than one step above used car salesmen -- or lawyers (figured I better get that in before somebody else inevitably does it).

Reply by mimi on 6/4/04 3:45pm
Msg #2736

Amen! I couldn't have said it better. Just because folks have had problems with some ss's doesn't mean you condone what notary A did. Hey, two wrongs don't make a right.

Reply by Reddington on 6/4/04 11:21am
Msg #2719

We all know this kind of thing happens in such a high volume, and new, booming business. So the money is gone. Now, for the notary wrote that hostile letter; she did not expect to have it posted on the internet for anyone to read. If she knew that her words would spread like this the letter would probably have looked a lot different. Criminals usually wish they hadn't done what got them caught before sentencing. Why can't anyone see that people like this should not be notaries in the first place. So what that her name and phone number are posted. Two faced people deserve what they get. I only hope that she learns something from this. Notaries are supposed to be honest and dishonesty can bite you in the ass.

Reply by Debbie/FL on 6/3/04 5:13pm
Msg #2682

I am so sorry that this has happened to you, and wish you well in your recovery.

If it were me, I would contact the Governor's office; Notary Public administration, in her state and lodge a formal complaint. I believe she could have her notary seal revoked for her actions. If that didn't work, I would find out who her liability insurance is with and try to recover it that way.

I have been fortunate in this business, Paul gave me great advice in the beginning; I took it and I ran with it.

I am still a new CSA and everytime I think that I am not going to be paid, I receive a check in the mail. It may be late, but it comes.

I have done 76 signings, and have managed to narrow down the companies that I will work for based on prompt payments.

I admire the fact that you paid the second notary once you realized the mistake rather than waiting.

I don't mind you listing her name, because we as notaries list names of companies when we request information about business practices from our peers.

I still can't believe that really happened; and I realize that there is always two sides to every story.

(I can't believe anyone would do something like that)

You are posting as :annonymous

Reply by HisHughness on 6/3/04 5:20pm
Msg #2685

I guess turn-about is fair play. We post the names of bandit signing companies; signing companies post the names of bad-egg notaries.

I assume the check was not payable to Notary B, but to Notary A, even though the payment was intended for Notary B. That being the case, you're probably going to be out of luck. Nonetheless, I'd gather up my information, reduce it to writing, send copies of the check to the county or district attorney, and ask them to prosecute. Tell them you'd be happy to appear in court. My guess is, the county attorney won't, even though you have a prima facie case of conversion. Nonetheless, it's worth a try. Just remember, though: The primary aim of a criminal proceeding is to punish for wrongdoing, not to set the victim right financially. Usually, restitution is part of the plea bargain, but not always. And in some states, it is a crime to use the threat of a criminal action to achieve a civil advantage.

That's not much help, I realize.

My fee for this advice is -- you guessed it! -- $80. Please forward the check to the right person this time. Or at least send me a closing or two.

Reply by Annonymous on 6/3/04 5:49pm
Msg #2690

Hugh, thanks for the humor. As far as I am concerned your advice is well worth more than $80....

I appreciate the thoughts of all. As a SS company, we can always count on a heated debate between the notaries within any topic. That is what makes this a Demorcratic society!!

Have a good day one and all...again, thank you for all the thoughts.

Reply by AnonLL on 6/3/04 6:33pm
Msg #2693

Notary was clearly unethical and should be reported to agency in her State that governs notaries. The Signing Agency should not have included her name in their post. Makes me wonder why some call this business a "profession" In any event, the Signing Agency, after reporting the Notary's unethical behavior, should consider making a claim in the Small Claims Court in her jurisdiction. Grow up, be a professional, and give the money back. It's so simple - IT'S NOT YOURS !!!!!

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 6/3/04 9:45pm
Msg #2697

I am surprised at some of the ethics that have been posted. If this notary cannot keep better records concerning payments she will not last long in this industry. Should notary B just suck it up and not receive payment because the signing company paid the wrong notary?
This mistake happens in our industry and notaries are expected to return checks that are not meant for us. I have certainly returned every check that was sent to me by mistake.
My reputation is good in this industry and if you want your reputation to be good this notary should have written out a check and sent it to this signing or title company. We all make some accounting errors so if I had cashed the check in error and the company called I would have just written a personal check to cover. If we want title and signing companies to treat us with dignity and pay us, we as notaries need to do the same.

What is with all the annoymous posting? I put my name up and post what I think. You can always get ahold of me on joanbergstrom.net.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 6/4/04 6:39am
Msg #2705

You Beat Me to the Punch, Joan!

I came real close last night to making a comment about the number of "anonymous" posters on the board. In this thread alone at one point of the 20 postings, 13 were cloaked in fake names. Talk about the blind leading the blind! I've always been of the opinion, if you can't use your real name on a public message board...don't post. I've also heard all the excuses & feeble rationale for why some feel they have to shield their identity. They don't hold water with me as I never place any credence in the words of anyone who posts behind a facade. Simply suck it up & put your "John Hancock" to your postings! You'll feel better for it & the rest of us will appreciate it greatly.

Reply by Anonymous on 6/4/04 7:23am
Msg #2707

Re: You Beat Me to the Punch, Joan!

I agree 100 percent. This anonymous posting has gotten out of hand. And all those people who are hiding behind anonymity are egg-sucking, spouse-beating, child-abusing, tax-cheating, booger-picking, stoplight-running, dog-kicking, work-shirking, snob-fawning, mouth-breathing, night-crawling, gas-generating, Grinch-loving, spine-lacking scoundrels.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 6/4/04 8:00am
Msg #2708

Succinctly Put!

Not my words, but they'll do.

Reply by Joshua Reddington OREGON on 6/4/04 11:28am
Msg #2721

Re: Succinctly Put!

We all know this kind of thing happens in such a high volume, and new, booming business. So the money is gone. Now, for the notary wrote that hostile letter; she did not expect to have it posted on the internet for anyone to read. If she knew that her words would spread like this the letter would probably have looked a lot different. Criminals usually wish they hadn't done what got them caught before sentencing. Why can't anyone see that people like this should not be notaries in the first place. So what that her name and phone number are posted. Two faced people deserve what they get. I only hope that she learns something from this. Notaries are supposed to be honest and dishonesty can bite you in the ass. P.S. You don't NEED a degree to be a notary but some ethics and basic accounting skills might help those that "can't keep up" with all those checks coming in. I really can't believe this lady.

Reply by Linda on 6/4/04 6:24pm
Msg #2744

I had this happen to me. I didn't realize that the check was for another signing in another state as I do many signings for this company. I told them to please deduct this amount from what was owed me. This was done with no hard feeling to anyone. I think I keep better records that this person, because you can tell from your paperwork and invoices if something is wrong, if you go back and check. I feel much better being honest and the company is still calling me to do signing. I sleep really well at night.