Posted by Negretes Notary Service on 5/27/04 8:05am
Msg #2341

Documents held hostage!!!

What should a signing service do with a notary that would hold a set of docs hostage ?

I will give you a quick run down as to what happened.
I contracted with a notary to do a signing, she took the job. I get a call from this notary and she says that it took longer than excpected because the borrower was busy reading the documents. Also she said that there where more notarizations than excpected. Then she tells me that I need to agree to pay another signing fee or she is not going to drop the documents at fed-ex if I don't agree to pay the extra fee.

What would you folks as notaies, think of a notary that would do this ?

I always feel that I can get my best answers from the notary community, as you folks are the ones that have to deal with the borrowers more than the signing service does.

Anthony J Negrete
Negrete's Notary Service

Reply by Larita/MI on 5/27/04 8:24am
Msg #2342

I would definitely take her out of your database. You may have to pay her the fees so that you can get the docs back, however, if there is a board that signing services and/or title co.'s use to give a heads up on bad notaries like we do on bad ss, then I would let others know to beware of her. Although she acted unprofessional and unethical, it's not fair for the lender and borrower to suffer with having a new notary come out to get the docs signed all over again. That can be very costly.

There has been times when I have done signings and it has taken much longer than expected and more work than expected, but that's my job and I fully understand this committment when I sign up with ss or title companies. When I accept any assignment, I accept the risk that it can take longer than usually but that's why I charge my fees accordingly. Unless she was required to sign a piggyback at the last minute or low-balled herself on the signing fee, I'm not sure what here issue is. I'm so sorry you had this experience, and I hope this opinion was helpful.

Larita

Reply by Becca_FL on 5/27/04 8:33am
Msg #2343

What is wrong with some people?! I find the unprofessional behavior that I read about on this and other boards to be down right appalling! How do these unethical notaries continue to work?

For the sake of all involved, perhaps you should agree to her fee (cross your fingers behind your back) and instead of sending payment send a nice letter explaining that extortion is against the law.

Reply by ej1 on 5/27/04 9:22am
Msg #2348

That is unethical. What problems are between you and her have nothing to do with the Lender or the Borrowers and those documents are not hers to keep. More so, these are time sensitive and must be returned for the loan to process!
I am still new and yes, have felt so far that the signing companies that I have confirmed appts. with sure are getting a good deal at $65 (base fee) and being that the ones I have had are within five miles of my home but some of these signings are (# of notarial acts) are alot greater than what I expected but I did make a deal with them.
What I don't like is the fact that when instances come up and I have called them that they do not return my calls in a timely manner to discuss the situation before the signing appt.
For instance, a borrower calls me to state that he cannot find or the witness that he had cannot show up for the signing. (an hour before signing). He then ask me to find someone to bring with me to witness it for all of his friends, family, and neighbors are not available. I call to discuss this with them and no one returned my call! I had to rush around trying to locate someone to go with me to act as a second witness! All of my friends and family work too and it was hard to find one within that time constraint! And when I did, I had to pay them for their time and consequently since I couldn't get in contact with the signing service and felt that professionally since I was not the person that the lenders contracted with that I couldn't contact them with this situation unless it meant that the loan would not get signed that day through no fault of my own! My question here is, should I still go ahead and charge the signing company for the $20 that I had to pay for an additonal witness to go and sign these documents???

Reply by Lisa/MN on 5/27/04 11:05am
Msg #2357

Bummer. I would definately think long and hard about my "friends and family". I can' think of any of mine that would actually charge to help me out in this type of setting. Sure! I would DEFINATELY do something nice for them for helping me out---but that is my decision and would chalk it up to a business expense.

As for the notary holding documents hostage, UNBELIEVABLE! Why don't these people realize that they are hurting the borrowers whom they have met with and have an obligation to! The beef about increasing fees would need to be hashed out with ss as they go along--if they can't agree to anything then the notary should chalk it up to a learning experience and not accept any more signings from the ss. I would hope though, that both parties would be professional enough to work it out. ( But, I don't think I should be paid extra because there were more notarizations that what I ASSUMED there to be--you know what that makes out of us!!!)

Reply by sue on 5/27/04 7:58pm
Msg #2401

no, you cannot bill after the fact for obtaining a witness. with experience comes taking charge. you should have told the borrowers that they had to supply a witness or the appt. would be rescheduled and you did not know if there would be additional fees involved for them. IT IS THEIR LOAN, not yours. If they can't copy a drivers license, be there on time, supply a required witness, etc., why do notaries think it is their job to do these things for the borrowers? these are grown adults and they must accept responsibility for themselves. it's not your job to make their life easier.

Reply by sue on 5/27/04 8:05pm
Msg #2403

ended up on wrong spot - reply to ej1

nm

Reply by CA_Notary on 5/28/04 4:10am
Msg #2446

I agree with Becca. Agree verbally to pay the extra fee just to get the docs returned, then send her the originally agreed upon fee. If and when she tries to get the additional fee from you, simply state that you don't deal with extortionists and just ignore any further contact from her. If she's stupid enough to try to pursue it legally, I can't imagine she'd get very far.

And of course, it goes without saying that you should get her out of your notary database immediately!

Reply by Becca/FL on 5/28/04 9:31am
Msg #2457

Re: Anthony, what happened? Please, let us all know. n/m

Reply by Lawrence Goodwin on 5/27/04 11:48am
Msg #2359

Morning to ya Anthony
A similer situation happened to me once. I assigned an appraiser to do an appraisal on a property. He agreed to the assignment for his normal fee.
Turnaround time was 3 days, on the second day he called me and informed me that the property was larger then expected and was holding the appraisal untill I agreed to pay extra. I PAID the extra, and also, he is no longer an appraiser. I reported him to the board.

Reply by notary on 5/27/04 12:22pm
Msg #2363

Anthony -

You might be one of the few good SSs out there. Please remember that most SSs treat notaries badly so we notaries are quick to think we are being skunked. That may be what the notary was thinking when she called you.

A recent example of my being skunked so you know what I mean:
This month I did a SS signing and agreed to a moderate price. Got to the signing: it was a piggyback of 175+ pages, tons of affidavits, and the borrowers spoke little English! Good thing I happened to speak enough of their language to get through. The signing took 2.25 hours. And the HUD revealed that I was being paid 20% of what the SS was paid. I knew it would be hopeless to ask for more money. But I will never work for that SS again.

A friend of mine sold used cars in the past. He is a very good man. He got out of the business because he could no longer stand to be treated like he was a greedy liar. I think you might have to put up with an angry notary once in a while as a SS owner. Comes with the territory.

Reply by Lawrence Goodwin on 5/27/04 1:09pm
Msg #2365

I do signings for the company who hired me. I expect them to have ALL documents in the package when it arrives, or Emailed. anything after that is considered addons and will be charged accordingly. The ONLY exceptions to this rule are revised additions to the original documents.

Reply by sue on 5/27/04 8:03pm
Msg #2402

pay your lawyer whatever fee he charges to draft & fax a letter to the notary demanding that she supply you with her insurance info. Find out from the lawyer if you can deduct his fee from her agreed upon fee (I'd imagine not). I'd also imagine that there would be no insurance coverage but that's not for you to decide - have him tell her a claim is being submitted and let the insurance deny the claim. I'd guess that the letter from the lawyer would get your docs returned asap.

Reply by Anonymous on 5/27/04 9:22pm
Msg #2412

Re: Get a paper and voice trail.


Be practical.

1) Ask the notary to submit in writing what the original fee was, what the problems were, and what she wants for the change. You now have a paper trail for your attorney and state regulator.

2) If it is not a large amount of money you might pay it. I would get the documents back. Then I would contact lawyer. If she agrees to return the difference. You might call it day. Otherwise, you will take legal action.
You might also agree not to report her to the state licensing authority requesting her commission be revoked. A copy of your original confirmation with fee and her "extortion" email should be attached. In my state telephone conversations can be recorded as long as one party to the call is aware they are being recorded. Not sure what rules apply in your state...ask your lawyer.

3) If it is not too embarrassing, you might contact the client and have a second notary redo the signing. Explain the problem. If I were a client, I would resign and be mad as hell at the first notary. I would still ask the original notary for an email as described above. I would not tell her I was doing a second signing. Tell her your boss insists that her request be made in writing so that she does not change her mind again and raise the rate a third time. Tell her on occassion your company has approved a higher fee, but only after submitted in writing. (a fax with her signature on it would be even better than an email) Again, after you get the documents back or have the second notary sign... have your lawyer send a letter and report her to the state. If your company has a history of paying a standard rate in a certain area...that can also be evidence to the state authority that this notaries request is inconsistent with your prior payment history. Ask that her seal be revoked. Even if you agree to the higher fee to get the documents back.. call the state authority tomorrow, report the incident and don't pay her. If she want to sue, you will be more than happy to tell a judge that 1) you reported it to the state(( get the name of the person you reported it to for your files)), 2) agree to her revised terms under duress and if she want to sue you will countersue 3) if you had her sign a contract that you will hold her liabile for all costs in defending yourself 4) she could be subject to violation of theft of property and state privacy law and 5) you will be on record with another set of documents from another notary in that state which supports your claim 6) the borrower will act as a witness on your behalf and 7) the borrower might sue her separately for violation of state privacy laws.

4) Remove her from your list.

Reply by DocumentService.com on 6/3/04 10:33am
Msg #2638

Hello Anthony,

We've experienced this same situation on a few occasions. It is the most gut wrenching experience. We've actually had our clients, and their clients get involved in the process of retrieving the documents. It is not only unprofessional for the notary to do this, there is also a question as to the legality of doing this.

The worst experience we had was when a notary new to document signing was unaware of how she was to be paid (even though it is posted on our site), so she demanded payment of her fee from the borrower at the time of signing. The borrower and us explained to her that the borrowers pay for the signing service through escrow. Not good enough...she held docs beyond the three day right of recission and killed the loan. All over $50.00, of which we overnighted payment just to get the docs back.

With all due respect to signing companies and notaries alike, we all make mistakes. But it is up to both sides to work it out. Anthony, it is maddening when you run into a notary like that. Especially when you cannot not effectively reason with them. Good luck. Looking forward to hearing the outcome.