Posted by Brenda Stone on 5/29/04 2:58pm
Msg #2507

Get the Liability of Proper ID off the Notary ???

I was hired for an appointment by a signing agency for a refi. And there was an ID problem.

I am using the correct first name, but the others are bogus:
On documents the name was Tonya S Turner
On the TDL was Tanya Stone Wallace

The law says a notary has to record “whether the signer, grantor or maker is
--personally known by the notary public
--was identified by an identification card issued by a governmental agency or a passport issued by the United States,
-- or was introduced to the notary public (and, if introduced, the name and residence or alleged residence of the individual introducing the signer, grantor, or maker)

There was nothing to identify this woman as the woman in the documents. There was more minutia and detail which worried me about the entire situation---ie, concerns about identify. Oh, but, I could have drafted some kind of Oath of her husband to introduce her or done an aff. like the signing agency asked me to, they did not care what I did as long as I signed ‘em up. They even suggested two witnesses. But, they would not call the lender.

What concerns me is you would not believe the hard sell that the SA gave me to do **anything** to fix the loan. I was told they had talked to the “manager” who ok’d me doing an Aka Affidavit (that would have been backwards and practicing law since they wanted me to draft it but that’s beside the point for the moment).

When I asked the manager’s name they did not have one and made up another lie. Then, I was told that the Aka Aff would take all the legal responsibility of making a proper ID off of me. Now, that was a good one.

I called another notary from this board who let me air out the problem. During the conversation the point was finally driven home to me that If a notary is not allowed to do her/his job and ID the witness to a reasonable degree why bother to use a notary?

I asked the SA to contact the loan officer about this since my contract with them says I contact them. They would not do it or try. I find that very odd.

I was called repeatedly by the co-b who became drunker and more filthy mouthed as the evening went on but, that’s another story. I always enjoy learning from you guys. Thanks. Brenda

Reply by Brenda Stone on 5/29/04 3:43pm
Msg #2508

BTW - I should have mentioned - this is Texas.

Brenda

Reply by CA_Notary on 5/29/04 11:43pm
Msg #2514

So did you do the signing or not? Hard to tell from your post :)

Reply by Brenda Stone on 5/30/04 12:07am
Msg #2516

I see what you mean. I did not do it. Thanks! Brenda

Reply by Anonymous on 5/30/04 8:43am
Msg #2517

In California, we have it a little easier as "satisfactory evidence" means the -- absence -- of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the person making the acknowledgment is not the individual he or she claims to be with only "reasonable reliance" placed on id.

Lenders usually will provide a "One and the Same" statement, however, you were not provided nor shown this form.

Under Federal Law requests for notarial services should be refused only after the most careful deliberation. It sounds like you at least exceeded this requirement. You should not kick yourself too hard, the lenders could have done more by providing the signers with a "One in the Same".

Good luck

Reply by Brenda Stone on 5/30/04 12:04pm
Msg #2519

I appreciate what you have said because the package did provide three One and the Same Statements, and none of them had enough similarity to the Driver's License to provide "satisfactory evidence" as you have noted.

Sincerely, Brenda

Reply by sue on 6/1/04 4:01pm
Msg #2553

Federal law doesn't govern notary work. each individual state has their own laws, especially when it to comes to properly iding your signer. my state (PA) allows me to refuse to notarize for any reason or for no reason. I don't have to use careful or any other type deliberation - if I want to refuse someone because they are wearing a pink shirt and I hate pink, I can do so.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/1/04 6:01pm
Msg #2556

Remind me never to show up for one of your signings wearing a fuchsia shirt, Sue.

Reply by Donna McGee on 6/1/04 10:38pm
Msg #2565

I'm in PA also. I'm not sure about refusing to notarize for ANY reason. In fact, I believe it is just the opposite. Curious.

I had a similar situation a few weeks ago. A gentleman whose given first name is Jean Michael and his last name is Smith (pseudonym) would frequently call himself Michael Jean Smith. He does not have a middle name. He would also call himself Michael Smith. His paperwork said Michael J. Smith. Since he could not prove himself to be Michael J. Smith, I could not do the signing. In this case, an AKA statement could not have been notarized either since the gentleman already admitted he had no middle name. The lender understood "Jean" to be his middle name. That would make it a false statement.

The lender's have to take the responsibilty of the getting the borrower's name right - not the notary. We are here to help prevent fraud by properly verifying ID.

Reply by sue on 6/2/04 7:54am
Msg #2574

PAN's Practical Guide, the best reference source ever

pg 58 - A notarty is not compelled to seve a customer and may refuse to do so without explanation.

I'm in York, where are you?

Reply by Donna McGee on 6/2/04 1:00pm
Msg #2596

Hello Sue,
I'm in the Pocono Mountains. Nice to meet you. :-)

I have the updated version of the Practical Guide (24th edition) and the guide does not indicate that you can refuse service for any reason. PAN confirmed that it's not in print and I'm waiting to hear from them while they check some more. When I took my 3hr seminar with PAN, the instructor mentioned that we could not refuse service for "any" reason even though on page seven of the instruction booklet it says that we can. He said this was updated. I remember the "veteren's" in the audience had a whole discussion on it for at least 10 minutes!

However, I contacted the PA Department of State and they said "no, you don't need a reason to deny service". I asked if it is in print anywhere and she said no.

So, it sounds to me like we can refuse service as you mentioned. I would just feel more comfortable to see it in print.

Also, we CAN use a credible witness if they are personally known by the notary - see Pratical Guide 24th edition page 35 and The Notary Public Law section 12.1(a). Perhaps that may be helpful for a future signing.

Reply by sue on 6/3/04 7:16am
Msg #2626

I went through your area on Monday - what a mess - everybody in New Jersey must have been in PA/NY for the weekend and all ended up in Milford at the same time - so much for my shortcut through the DE Water Gap to miss 84/81 at Scranton.

anyway, this is so odd - at my education seminar we too had the same discussion (along with use of the camera card in place of a renewed license) and that's even where I got my pink shirt analogy. when they open, I'll do an online PAN chat and see what they say.

when calling the SOS, I always ask for Crystal (forger her last name at the moment) a compliance attorney. of course a few years ago when PAN was stating you couldn't charge travel fees and I wanted an answer as to why, I ended up at the SOS and she initially said no but when I pushed (using going to a nursing home for $2 as my example) she went up the ladder and received permission to issue an opinion letter okaying travel fees as long as it was fully disclosed up front. so, even they waffle sometimes.

anyway, I'll let you know what I find out

by the way, I've got a dog-eared 23rd edition - never got around to getting a new book although that's been on the 'to do' list for the past several months since the new edition came out.

Reply by Gracie on 6/3/04 11:13am
Msg #2643

Wait another month before you order a Practical Guide, Sue. They told me the 25th edition will be available July 1.

Reply by sue on 6/1/04 9:57am
Msg #2539

Brenda, I would not have done the signing. the person's name wasn't even close. you follow your state's laws regarding identifying the person. period. the signing service should have no say in how you do that. when I call in to my client to say that I can't sign due to id problems, they always try to give a list of ways around it but when I call, I've already exhausted every means possible.

also, as to the signing service and their witnesses, most signing services are in California where credible witnesses are allowed. they are not allowed in my state and I don't imagine in many other states either. be sure to check that out for yourself with your own SOS office.

an a/k/a and name affidavit are not sufficient, no matter who drafts them. Depending on your state's laws, ask the person how the name differences came about and perhaps you can do some type chain to connect the names but certainly not in every state. IDing the signer is your responsibility and yours only.

finally, I've got caller ID and would not have answered when the borrower kept calling me but without the caller ID I would have immediately hung up each and every time and I also would have immediately called the loan officer and told them to get their borrower in check immediately. (don't know if it would have worked but couldn't hurt)

Reply by BrendaTX on 6/1/04 1:12pm
Msg #2546

Sue, Your line of thinking was exactly my line of thinking. Bless you for reinforcing this for those who are easy pushovers. I fear if notaries do not do their job, the entire industry will suffer.

Sincerely, Brenda

Reply by Gracie on 6/3/04 11:16am
Msg #2644

You're right, Brenda. We're a notary first and mobile signing agent second.

Reply by BrendaTX on 6/10/04 2:35am
Msg #2936

Update & Definition of "Practice of Law"

A week later I got a phone call from the highest notary "counselor" in the SA company. Madame Counselor of the Notaries: "It was just a typo (100% throughout the loan?) which I could have corrected with the AKA" I repeated that all I needed to tell her was that the ID was wrong. Period.

She said she would immediately contact her Tx attorney and give me a report on her findings on the AKA and ID laws. I have not heard from her again. I am still getting assignments that are going smoothly, so, I guess I did not get "fired" as she said I might be. (Madame said she was doing all she could to help me "keep my job" ) I have had no other problems with this company.

Following is the ' practice of law ' definition,

http://www.txuplc.org/ Texas UPLC "What is the ' practice of law?'

The practice of law is defined by statute and by case law. Section 81.101 of the Texas Government Code states:

(a) In this chapter the "practice of law" means the preparation of a pleading or other document incident to an action or special proceeding or the management of the action or proceeding on behalf of a client before a judge in court as well as a service rendered out of court, including the giving of advice or the -> rendering of any service requiring the use of legal skill or knowledge, such as preparing a will, contract, or other instrument, the legal effect of which under the facts and conclusions involved must be carefully determined. <-

2. ...'


Brenda