Posted by Anonymous on 10/5/04 10:45pm
Msg #9392
Borrower's contract w/SS
Can I notarize a contract from the signing company signed by the borrower stating they will "pay for all notarial services performed with this loan" when I will be the one directly benefitting (getting paid)? And why would this need to be notarized?
| Reply by anthony on 10/5/04 10:51pm
Msg #9393
you cant notarize yourself, another notary would have to notarize it, but then yes it could be done
| Reply by HisHughness on 10/5/04 11:30pm
Msg #9395
Anonymous asks:
***Can I notarize a contract from the signing company signed by the borrower stating they will "pay for all notarial services performed with this loan" when I will be the one directly benefitting (getting paid)? And why would this need to be notarized?
I have no idea why notarization would be necessary. Perhaps PAW would. Typically, contracts don't require notarial certification. Even wierder is that, as far as I can tell, you would have no enforcement rights; you have no privity of contract with the borrower, only with the SS.
As to whether you could notarize such an instrument, absolutely not. You are a beneficiary.
| Reply by Jon on 10/6/04 12:43am
Msg #9401
Hugh asserted: "As to whether you could notarize such an instrument, absolutely not. You are a beneficiary."
Some states, like Ca, it would be perfectly acceptable and within the scope of the law to notarize that document. Ca law gives a very clear definition to "beneficial interest in a transaction."
Government Code § 8224. Conflict of interest; financial or beneficial interest in transaction; exceptions
A notary public who has a direct financial or beneficial interest in a transaction shall not perform any notarial act in connection with such transaction.
For purposes of this section, a notary public has a direct financial or beneficial interest in a transaction if the notary public:
(a) With respect to a financial transaction, is named, individually, as a principal to the transaction.
(b) With respect to real property, is named, individually, as a grantor, grantee, mortgagor, mortgagee, trustor, trustee, beneficiary, vendor, vendee, lessor, or lessee, to the transaction.
For purposes of this section, a notary public has no direct financial or beneficial interest in a transaction where the notary public acts in the capacity of an agent, employee, insurer, attorney, escrow, or lender for a person having a direct financial or beneficial interest in the transaction.
Depending on where Anonymous is located, it may very well be legal for him/her to notarize that document. It would depend on whether or not the notary is actually named on the document to be paid, or if the SS would get paid and then pay the notary.
BTW, the reason for notarization could be that the SS is ignorant as to what notarization is and thinks that if they have the document notarized it will be legal.
| Reply by HisHughness on 10/6/04 1:29am
Msg #9402
Jo(h)n asserts:
***Some states, like Ca, it would be perfectly acceptable and within the scope of the law to notarize that document.***
I disagree. Whether a party is named in the documentation for any transaction is not dispositive of whether the party will be benefited by that transaction. Simply because the law states that under these circumstances, a party may or may not be a beneficiary does not rule out other circumstances not contemplated by the statute.
Here, for example, the transaction may give the notary color of law to sue the borrower, something that he did not have before. Or postulate a case in which Party A has contracted with the notary to convey stock to the notary. Party A and Party B enter into an agreement, requiring notarization, for B to convey stock to A. The notary is unnamed, but is very much a beneficiary of the transaction. The notary cannot provide notarial certification for any documents.
| Reply by BrendaTX on 10/6/04 8:50am
Msg #9415
If, and only if, I could interpret legal languageI'd agree with Hugh on this one...but of course, I can't.... since while my peers were in law school I was getting a really good tan and listening to AC/DC at the beach.
Thus, whatever I'd have to add to this would be a moot point since I don't engage in UPL.
| Reply by Jon on 10/6/04 9:51am
Msg #9419
Just giving a different perspective. In Ca a loan officer can legally notarize a loan for his clients, even though his compensation is directly related to closing the transaction. However, I can see your point also. At any rate, since you paid the big bucks for your law degree, I'll let you win this one. Especially since I am not a lawyer and not allowed to give legal advice and my ramblings on NOT ROT are only my opinion and I can never come up with big words like you.(How's that for a run-on sentence) 
| Reply by HisHughness on 10/6/04 10:07am
Msg #9421
Jo(h)n averred:
***At any rate, since you paid the big bucks for your law degree, I'll let you win this one. Especially since I am not a lawyer and not allowed to give legal advice and my ramblings on NOT ROT are only my opinion and I can never come up with big words like you.***
Rule 111, HisHughness' Legal Practicum: If you don't know what you're talking about, phrase everything polysyllabically. No one else will know what you're saying either, but they'll figure anyone who can say it that well must know what they're talking about.
| Reply by PAW Notary Services on 10/6/04 10:43am
Msg #9428
HH >>>If you don't know what you're talking about, phrase everything polysyllabically. ...<<<
Is that like saying, "You can't BS a BS artist?" (To put it in the vernacular.)
| Reply by BrendaTX on 10/6/04 10:58am
Msg #9430
Jon mentioned: "...and I can never come up with big words like you..."
Jon, Don't let him fool you. He's got a big ol' stack (superfluity) of word list books (dictionaries and thesauri) so he can mock us all into shame (degradation).
(See, I found a few 25-cent words (polysyllabic words) in my wordy books, so, ha and ha, HH.)
| Reply by HisHughness on 10/6/04 12:22pm
Msg #9432
BrendaTX said:
***He's got a big ol' stack (superfluity) of word list books (dictionaries and thesauri) so he can mock us all into shame (degradation).***
C'mon, Brenda; be fair. You don't need me to lead you into degradation. You do right well on your own.
| Reply by Ted_MI on 10/6/04 1:37pm
Msg #9440
Jon (and others),
In Michigan, I don't think it would be illegal either for him to notarize this document. That is because his financial interest is limited to his notarial fees.
MCL (Michigan Compiled Laws for you non-lawyers) 55.291 Sec 31 (7) states:
A notary public shall not perform any notarial act in connection with the transaction if the notary public has a conflict of interest. Conflict of interest is partially defined as follows in subsection (a) :
(if)the notary public has a direct financial or beneficial interest, other than the notary public fee, in the transaction.
| Reply by HisHughness on 10/6/04 1:44pm
Msg #9441
Ted:
The notary public here has an interest beyond his NP fee; he would be drawing signing agent fees also.
| Reply by BrendaTX on 10/6/04 1:46pm
Msg #9443
Hugh pointed out: "Ted: The notary public here has an interest beyond his NP fee; he would be drawing signing agent fees also."
I thought that same exact thing.
| Reply by Jon on 10/6/04 2:31pm
Msg #9445
The document specifically states, according to the poster, that the borrower must "pay for all notarial services performed with this loan". Who's to say that includes the signing agent fee?
Oh, I forgot, Hugh is!!!
| Reply by Ted_MI on 10/6/04 4:30pm
Msg #9452
Hugh & Brenda,
Point well taken. Construing the statute literally, I presume the two of you are correct.
As a point of information, in Michigan the maximum a notary can charge for a notarization is $10 bucks, for what that is worth.
| Reply by PAW Notary Services on 10/6/04 7:39am
Msg #9407
Sir Hugh opined: "I have no idea why notarization would be necessary. Perhaps PAW would."
I have no idea why you would think I have any idea either. As you said, contracts or very rarely notarized. However, it is not up to us to determine what gets notarized. If someone wants the signers signature of a contract notarized, so be it. $10 please!
As for whether or not we, acting as the notary signing agent can notarize this "contract", it would be up to legal interpretation. We are not "named" directly in the contract, but by association we would have direct benefit from the contract. Therefore, to avoid the perception (no matter how small) of UPL, I will refrain from commenting on the legality of us notarizing the document.
Finally, as a borrower, I would never agree to such a stipulation anyway. The notarization of the documents is a lender/title fee and should be included in their fees, or at least, separately stated on the HUD and paid as part of the closing costs.
Another final question: Why is a Signing Service providing this contract? Even from a borrower's perspective, the borrower has no obligation to the signing service. The SS is chosen by the lender or title company (in most cases).
| Reply by BrendaTX on 10/6/04 8:46am
Msg #9414
PAW NS Replied in part "Sir Hugh opined: "I have no idea why notarization would be necessary. Perhaps PAW would."
>>I have no idea why you would think I have any idea either.<<
My guess is because if anyone has seen it all, Paul, it's you. I'd take it as a compliment. The People of the Notary Forum Clan know you are our Notarial Clan Soothsayer and Medicine Man.
| Reply by PAW Notary Services on 10/6/04 10:35am
Msg #9424
>>blushing<<
But, unlike Sir Hugh, I am but a meer mortal. And the only Scottish in me blood is that that comes from the brown containers.
However, I can relate to the "Medicine Man" metaphor.
| Reply by BrendaTX on 10/6/04 6:09pm
Msg #9461
Said the Blushing Notary Savant, PAW NS, " But, unlike Sir Hugh, I am but a meer mortal. And the only Scottish in me blood is that that comes from the brown containers.
However, I can relate to the "Medicine Man" metaphor."
-----
I just figured out, PAW NS, that as far as "clan" goes, you and I were thinking on two different levels. I'm laughing at my unsophisticated reading habits here...
You probably never read the prehistoric theme bodice ripper series -- 'Clan of the Cave Bear.'
Now, I am the one blushing because I couldn't figure out what Scotch had to do with prehistoric clans, medicine men, mystics, or club-carrying cavemen using a cavewoman's coif like a handle!
(:>) Now, will somebody tell me how to make a smiley appear because it's driving me crazy that I don't know how to do that.
| Reply by PAW NS on 10/6/04 9:01pm
Msg #9465
>>>Now, will somebody tell me how to make a smiley appear because it's driving me crazy that I don't know how to do that<<<
Like this -
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/6/04 6:53am
Msg #9405
Why is the SS sending such a document to the borrower to sign???
The SS usually do not have anything to do with the loan package. It usually comes from the lender or title company.
They are paying for the notarial services, it is on the HUD settlement statement in the closing costs.
I have seen a document from a lender in a package stating that if the loan is canceled or does not fund for any reason that the borrower will pay for the notary services. Most borrowers decline to sign this. Their RTC says they can cancel without cost.
But I have never seen a document from a SS stating this.
Which signing service is this???
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