Posted by Judy on 10/15/04 4:28pm
Msg #9894

Victoria Ring Book

Hi, have any of you purchased Victoria Rings latest book... the one on processing bankruptcy forms. I know this isn't exactly the forum to ask this but I know a lot of you know who she is and may have the newest book. Before I invest $60 I just want to know if anyone else has read the book.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/15/04 9:31pm
Msg #9912

Before you even consider it, check out your states laws on bankruptcies.

Here in Florida we cannot do the bankruptcies. One notary who had a doc prep service was just fined heavily by the Florida Supreme Court for UPL - one of the charges she was found guilty of was helping someone with their bankruptcy!

I would be very very careful before getting involved with bankruptcies.

Reply by Roger/OH on 10/16/04 9:25am
Msg #9931

Not only are bankruptcies VERY involved and detailed, do think carefully about doing anything where Victoria Ring is the source of information. She has a history of inaccuracies and misinformation.

Reply by suzanne - fl on 10/16/04 10:54am
Msg #9937

Sylvia,
I thought in Florida they allow Bankroptcy Petition Preparers to prepare the paperwork - just ot advise on any laws or represent in court - I have a freind who has been doing this for over 8 years

Reply by suzanne-fl on 10/16/04 10:55am
Msg #9938

I misspelled Bankruptcy - sorry!

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 10/16/04 1:32pm
Msg #9939

The following is from The Law Offices of David I. Fuchs (http://www.southfloridabankruptcylawyers.com/bkfaq.html)

----------------------------

Bankruptcy petition preparers are permitted to provide services limited to the typing of forms. They may not advise you in any way. Their services are subject to various statutory requirements and limitations. Although bankruptcy preparers are required to sign all documents prepared for filing, they are not authorized to sign any document on your behalf. Therefore, you and if filing a joint petition your spouse, must also sign all documents. The bankruptcy petition preparer should furnish copies of all prepared documents to you at the time they are presented to you for signature. Further, bankruptcy law prohibits bankruptcy petition preparers from collecting or receiving any court fees connected with the filing of your case. Consequently, all court fees connected with the filing of your case, including the filing fee and miscellaneous administrative fee, should be paid directly by you to the court. The failure of any bankruptcy petition preparer to comply with the law should immediately be brought to the attention of any trustee appointed in your case and the local Office of the United States Trustee.

Reply by suzanne-fl on 10/16/04 2:19pm
Msg #9940

That is what I thought. Thank you PAW for your answer. I think the person Sylvia was referring to may have been doing some illegal things like taking court fees, giving advice, etc,

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 10/16/04 2:47pm
Msg #9942

There are so many UPL cases against people (notaries, paralegals, etc.) in Florida because it is too easy to assist in completing the forms. This is also what Victoria Ring says to do. In Florida, unless you are an attorney or working under the direct supervision of an attorney, the only thing you can do is type up the document. You cannot "assist" the client in completing the forms or anything like that. Personally, if the only thing I could do is type the document, there is no need to meet with the client or have any conversation, other than possibly trying to decipher their handwriting. It's too risky for my blood.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/16/04 6:46pm
Msg #9947

Suzanne
One of the violations was "preparing or assisting in the preparation of pleadings and other legal documents for their customers"

I do have a copy of the Supreme Court's decision if you want to send me an e-mail at
[e-mail address] and I will send it to you - it is in pdf format

Reply by sue on 10/16/04 5:18pm
Msg #9944

I'm guessing that these type debtors (ones who'd go to a preparer rather than a lawyer) are rather unsophisticated. So, how does the preparer advise them what chapter to file, without practicing law? how do they help them determine what debts to have discharged and which to reaffirm? how can they explain the legal ramifications of filing deadlines and time frames? can you counsel them on being certain this is the course they need to take, rather than a lawyer who might be able to negotiate a forebearance agreement or get a sheriff's sale postponed?

I'm not saying it's not allowed as I've got absolutely no idea, but like so many others I'd never trust anything Victoria Ring says.

If I were interested, I'd call a local attorney (which I did on behalf of someone else in my state who was interested in this) and find out if it's legal (in my state it isn't even a grey area - the answer is no). You'd need to find an attorney to hire you and then you'd be okay - so, before purchasing a course, I'd find out from the ones needing the service, the lawyers, if there truly is a need and if there is such a need they'd consider farming the work out rather than using in house staff.

Reply by BrendaTX on 10/16/04 5:40pm
Msg #9946

Sue's statement: "You'd need to find an attorney to hire you and then you'd be okay - so, before purchasing a course, I'd find out from the ones needing the service, the lawyers, if there truly is a need and if there is such a need they'd consider farming the work out rather than using in house staff."

I agree with Sue.

To it I'd add:
The concept of farming out the work is not that much different than a doctor or lawyer who sends dictation out for transcript typing, or a loan originator who sends work out to a mortgage processor.

Reply by Ted_MI on 10/16/04 7:32pm
Msg #9948

Sue,

You have posed some very good questions in paragraph one. The answer to all those questions is - they can't. I think the problem is not so much unsophisticated debtors but preparers that should have known better and should have affiliated with a debtors' bankruptcy attorney rather than operating independently. There are a lot of very sophisticated issues in bankruptcy work that untrained preparers just wouldn't be aware of.

PAW's response is very good and right on point.

Reply by Raleigh/VA on 10/18/04 8:59am
Msg #9975

I too have wondered about the book and kept looking for someone to answer the question who had actually read the book. So far as I could tell, no one said they had read the book. Is there someone who has read the book who can answer the question?

While I honestly do appreciate the comments on the law, I would really like to her comments on the book. Thanks!