Posted by Brenda J Khan on 9/21/04 8:43pm
Msg #8558

Refusing to Fingerprint

I had a signing this morning and was amazed at the resistance I got from the borrower in putting his fingerprint in my notary journal. He flat out refused at first, which red flags went up all over in my head! I insisted he put his fingerprint in my journal and tried to explain to him what the reasons were and that it would not be used unless an identification conflict arouse in the future. He still refused! He then stated he wanted to call his loan officer and ask him, I tried to explain to him that his loan officer is not the Notary here and that I am and that this is my journal for everyone's protection, but he still insisted on calling his loan officer. The loan officer asked me what was the issue I politely explained that I require all signers I notarize for to have their fingerprint in my journal along side the other ID information, he then instructed the borrower to do so and the borrower reluctantly gave me only a partial thumb print, on purpose I might add. I figure this man has some underlying reason why he does not want to give his fingerprint, but a partial is enough for ID purposes if they have an existing fingerprint on file. I know that Florida is not required to fingerprint or keep a journal for that matter but I strongly recommend to everyone to keep a journal and fingerprint everyone!
I would like to know if anyone else has ever had a refusal for fingerprinting or any recommendations or comments on how I handled this situation would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. BK-FL

Reply by HisHughness on 9/21/04 9:14pm
Msg #8561

Being an obstreperous SOB, I probably would object to being fingerprinted for a civil business transaction unless the law required it. I'm not sure I can give you a good reason; it just seems a bit Big Brotherish to me.

Reply by Hampton/CA on 9/21/04 9:41pm
Msg #8563

In CA, we have to get a thumbprint for any deed, grant deed, etc effecting real estate. If I had a refusal for a thumbprint, I'd explain to them the CA code and then tell them that I'd be voiding the notarization on the DOT, which would result in the loan not funding.

I'm sure that would their thumb on the paper.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/21/04 9:46pm
Msg #8566

Re: Refusing to Fingerprint - Hampton

I agree with you. In CA it is a requirement, but it isn't in Florida and we are not authorized to take the thumbprints in Florida. If a borrower willingly provides a thumbprint then no problem, but as soon as they refuse, we cannot insist they provide one.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/21/04 10:11pm
Msg #8569

Until we have to do that, I am not going to tackle it. Lots of folks 'round these parts react that way (i.e. like Hugh, self-proclaimed obstreperous SOB) . I get that same kind of comment here and there when I have them sign the journal.

------
Off topic, but ... in the background here is the reality comedy "DOG: The Bounty Hunter." It makes me laugh almost as much as the Antique Roadshow when somebody brings in a fake they paid a gazillion dollars for and should have known better.

I kinda like the idea of "BRENDA: The Notary Public." A&E just hasn't thought of it yet. I'll have to drop them an email.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/21/04 10:15pm
Msg #8570

Let me clear up what I meant "...I get that same kind of comment here and there when I have them sign the journal."

When they see the place for the thumbprint.

Reply by Bob-Chicago on 9/21/04 11:43pm
Msg #8585

Unlike obstreperous(if Hugh think that sp is ok then it is ok to me) Hugh, I am sweet, kind and cooperative. (I am guessing that "SOB is short for "swell old boy" )Nevertheless, unless a notary can show me that a fingerprint in their journal is required by state law, then I would ask for another notary , and tell the lender why, if a NSA insisted on my fingerprint as a condition of signing my loan docs..
I have seen loan docs that required a thumbprint on the docs, but that would fall under the "Golden Rule".
Getting patted down to get on an airplane, I can deal with, but enough is enough.

Reply by Bobbi in CT on 9/22/04 12:02pm
Msg #8633

You won't get my fingerprint ..

I agree with Hugh. CT does NOT require Journals and most Notaries do not keep them. Further, during the past 15 years the Secy. of State's office has refused to introduce legislation requiring a Journal and did not support legislation introduced to require one. CT also does not require a bond and E&O insurance.

Since the Law does not require me to leave a signature or a fingerprint in a Notary Journal, I, too, would refuse on mere principle. From a consumer perspective, I will do what is required by my lender to get the loan and the law as far as identification. I would NOT agree to signatures and fingerprinting to accommodate one Notary's personal requirements when the law and other Notaries do not require it. Further, I have no guarantee that all that Very Confidential, Private Information will be safeguarded. Without the law requiring it, will the Notaries Bond and E&O coverage (are these required in your state?) pay out on my claim if my identity is stolen from the information in your Journal?

Not to be an SOB to you directly. Just to give you an opposite viewpoint.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/21/04 9:43pm
Msg #8564

Brenda
I am sorry you are wrong. From the Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries.

"Florida law does not require nor authorize notaries to take fingerprints from persons whose signatures they notarize. Many notary journals or records books allow space for a thumbprint, but this feature is optional. If there is no objection from the signer you may record a thumbprint in your journal. However you should not refuse to provide notary services based solely on the persons refusal to provide a fingerprint in your record book."

As soon as he refused, that should have been the end of it. You cannot insist they give you a thumbprint.

I do not request thumbprints from the borrowers.

Reply by Brenda J Khan on 9/21/04 11:36pm
Msg #8583

I did some research and this is what I came up with from the Florida Statues;

Florida Statue 117.05 (5) A notary public may not notarize a signature on a document unless he or she personally knows, or has satisfactory evidence, that the person whose signature is to be notarized is the individual who is described in and who is executing the instrument.

(5) (b) For the purposes of this subsection, "satisfactory evidence" means the absence of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the person whose signature is to be notarized is not the person he or she claims to be and any one of the following:
1. a. That the person whose signature is to be notarized is the person named in the document;

You are correct Sylvia in regards to what the Governor's Reference Manual states. I believe I had grounds to request additional evidence. I did not refuse to notarize for him, I just insisted he put his fingerprint in my journal. BK-FL

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/21/04 11:48pm
Msg #8587

Brenda
What grounds did you have for requesting additional evidence (his thumbprint)?

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 9/22/04 5:42am
Msg #8601

Unless you are an expert in "reading" fingerprints, asking for a fingerprint as "satisfactory evidence" of identification is a pretty thin excuse (imo). Especially when the manual specifically states that taking fingerprints are not authorized.

Reply by Derrick/MT on 9/22/04 10:47am
Msg #8630

What grounds did you have to request additional information. It is not like you have a finger printing machine that can tell you who he is right on the spot. Would another form of ID have been better or a creditable witness?

Reply by Happy in Fl on 9/22/04 3:07am
Msg #8598

Brenda- I think you handled it very well. I should be that gracious.! No one so far has refused to put a thumb print in my journal-- or on any loose Jurat or Acknowledgement that I have attached to the Documents.. Believe it is for our protection- as well as everyones- In this day and age especially - believe Florida should mandate the Journal, to help in a situation like that. Glad you brought this to light--WOW! In fact- if a husband and wife are both signing- I have both prints in my Journal-- So far so good.

Reply by Dotti_CA on 9/22/04 3:32pm
Msg #8641

All of these comments are interesting. Here in CA we are required to use a journal. I request every signer to sign the journal and give me their right thumbprint. Most find it "cool" and I've never had anyone even slightly resist. I've even let kids fingerprint something of their parents. Maybe we Californians are as crazy as they say........

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/22/04 9:29pm
Msg #8658

Re: Refusing to Fingerprint - Dotti

But in CA you are required to get a thumbprint on notarized docs pertaining to real estate.
In Florida we are not required and are not authorized to take fingerprints - or thumbprints. We are not required, but strongly recommended to keep a journal.
I keep a journal and I have never had anyone have a problem signing it, especially when I explain to them I am keeping a record of the docs I have notarized for them in case there is ever a question on what was notarized. They are usually OK with that. But if any of the signers refused to sign my journal, then I would not push it. I would just carry on with the signing.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 9/22/04 5:34am
Msg #8600

Under Florida law and SOS guidance, notary journals and fingerprints are NOT required, nor authorized. Journals are encouraged, but not necessary. If a signer refuses to sign and/or put their fingerprint in your journal, you MUST accept their decision. You CANNOT REQUIRE a signer to do this, whether or not you "require" it for your own purposes. Be thankful that the signer doesn't report you to the SOS.

When I pull out my journal for them to sign, I tell them that it is not required in Florida, but for their own protection... yadda, yadda, yadda. If they refuse, I simply write in the signature block, "refused to sign". I make no determination whether or not they have anything to hide.

The following is an excerpt from the Governor's Manual for Notaries:

Q - May I require the fingerprints of a person for whom I notarize?

A - No. Florida law does not require, nor authorize, notaries to take
fingerprints from persons whose signatures they notarize. Many
notary journals or records books allow space for a thumbprint, but
this feature is optional. If there is no objection from the signer, you may
record a thumbprint in your journal. However, you should not refuse to
provide notary services based solely on the person’s refusal to provide a
fingerprint in your record book.

Reply by Loretta/MD on 9/22/04 6:56am
Msg #8605

Unless it is required by law, I would not even consider it a topic of conversation. In Maryland, it is not required, therefore, I don't ask for one. I do not do a closing unless they have id, like a drivers license. I fill out an Identification Affadavit. That's it. Not required to do anything else. I would not put my fingerprint on anything like this unless it was law. I would suggest that you not do this if it is not required by your state. You may find lots of complaints to lender/title companies/signing companies (whoever) and yourself out of business.
JMHO

Reply by PA on 9/22/04 8:23am
Msg #8607

in PA, a fingerprint is not required and I would not provide one. if that sent up flags, it wouldn't matter to me, I'd find another notary who would accept my valid drivers license - all that's REQUIRED in my state. I believe this is another case of NNA overkill. I've read in several publications and once at a regional seminar where they stated 'it was best' to obtain a fingerprint. 'what's best' and what's required are 2 entirely different things and as I believe PAW stated, unless you've been trained in fingerprinting it probably won't do much good. There is one regional bank here that requires a thumb print if you want to cash a check and don't have an account there. When they implemented this requirement, it was a huge news story as so many people refused.

Fingerprinting, when REQUIRED by a governmental body (especially if it's in order to get those silver bracelets removed) is fine but other than that, never.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 9/22/04 8:38am
Msg #8610

There are only three times, that I can think of, that a **normal** citizen needs to offer up their fingerprints:

1 - Law enforcement or Federal/State Agency purposes
2 - Banks cashing non-customer, other bank checks or drafts (bank policy)
3 - Military purposes

The fourth situation, limited in scope, applies to deeds/mortgages in California. I believe, CA is the only state that mandates thumbprinting of the signers in those cases.

Reply by Bob-Chicago on 9/22/04 8:42am
Msg #8611

Another Exception

I have done a number of HELOCS for a particular lender ( don't recall name) that required a thumbprint on the loan agreement. I haven't seen one in some time.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/22/04 10:00am
Msg #8619

I had to have fingerprints to get my citizenship - but then, Popsie, I know you don't consider me "normal" LOL

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 9/22/04 10:23am
Msg #8623

We ALL know that you are not a **normal** citizen.

I also stipulated that fingerprints may be required by Federal/State Agencies. INS, I do believe, is still considered a Federal Agency. (Execpt in Miami, FL.)

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/22/04 10:26am
Msg #8626

INS

Popsie - it is no longer the INS, it is now USCIS (U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services), a division within the Dept. of Homeland Security.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 9/22/04 10:29am
Msg #8628

Re: INS

Yeah, but when you did it, it was the INS. (Or maybe it was part of the Mayflower compact.)

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/22/04 12:48pm
Msg #8636

Re: INS

Hmmm did the Mayflower people have to go through the citizenship test?
That would have had to be a very short test then - no history

Reply by Brenda J Khan on 9/22/04 8:27pm
Msg #8656

Re: fingerprinting opinions

Thank you all for your input it has been very enlightening and helpful. BK-FL

Reply by HisHughness on 9/23/04 5:57am
Msg #8661

Re: fingerprinting opinions

Brenda...

You got pummeled a bit for recounting your fingerprinting practices and the fingerprinting episode. You have handled that exceptionally well, far better than I would, I suspect. Please don't let the negative posts inhibit you from contributing here frequently. You bring something to the forum, and it would be diminished without your frequent input.

Reply by Brenda J Khan on 9/23/04 7:32am
Msg #8663

Re: fingerprinting opinions

Hugh and to all,
I realize whenever I post a question or ask for advice I will receive both negative and positive posts and that is what is so great about this forum. I really appreciate all aspects of people's opinions and suggestions. I take what I believe is best for myself and my business from the responces. This is a great learning environment for all involved and I will continue to be involved not only for my benefit but for others. Thank you for the words of encouragement Hugh. BK-FL

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/23/04 7:44am
Msg #8664

Re: fingerprinting opinions

Hugh, self-defined obstreperous SOB, said: "Brenda (Brenda Kahn/FL) ...You have handled that exceptionally well, far better than I would, I suspect. Please don't let the negative posts inhibit you from contributing here frequently. You bring something to the forum, and it would be diminished without your frequent input."

I agree. Also, these kinds of threads are helpful to clarify notary rules and to determine other signing agents' future practices in the field. Please continue to post.