Posted by Anonymous on 9/15/04 10:42am
Msg #7988

SHOCKED

I went to a signing the other day and the people did not read or understand English.
They had no idea what they were signing. They kept asking what the forms said or what did this word mean. They called their agent and he told them just to sign that everything was alright. When we where signing they kept saying he told us differently or he did not mention some of the facts. What is one to say in these cases? This is the first time this has happened to me.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/15/04 10:46am
Msg #7989

If they didn't understand what they were signing then how could you notarize the docs?

They have to understandwhat they are signing.

Reply by Anonymous on 9/15/04 10:54am
Msg #7991

I would tell them what the form was and translate the words that they did not understand.
I also told them that they had three days to cancel and they could always take them to someone and have them explained to them more in detail. Was I correct in doing this?

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 9/15/04 10:59am
Msg #7992

In my opinion, from what you have said, no, you were not correct in continuing the signing. One of the key aspects of notarizing signatures is that the signer must have a full understating of what they are signing. Also, it is imperative that they communicate this understanding to you, the notary public. Depending on what state you are located in, you may or may not be able to translate the document(s) for the signer.

Personally, I would have terminated the signing, explaining that the borrowers did not understand the documents and could not read them.

Reply by Anonymous on 9/15/04 11:23am
Msg #7994

I am in the state of California. I tried to teminate the signing but they said they had to sign and needed the loan. They stated that for the most part they understood what they were signing.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 9/15/04 12:22pm
Msg #7998

IMPO, "for the most part" doesn't cut the mustard. They must be able to fully comprehend everything they are doing. There are affidavits in the package that they sign and swear to certain facts, one of which is that all the information in the document package is true and accurate. Not that "some" of it (the parts they understand) is accurate, but all of it. And unless they fully understand and am able to read all the documents, I would still feel uncomfortable completing the signing.

It really doesn't make any difference how much the "needed the loan". The laws are there to protect them. You don't know if the broker/lender provided correct information. And, they couldn't tell either. Of course the broker/lender is going to tell them everything is alright, just sign it. They want their commission.

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 9/15/04 4:04pm
Msg #8012

"...and translate the words they did not understand."


From the CA notary Handbook 2004
"When notarizing a document, a notary must be able to communicate with their customer in order for the signer to either swear to or affirm the contents of an affidavit or to acknowledge the execution of a document. An interpreter should not be used, as vital information could be lost in the translation. If a notary is unable to communicate with a customer, the customer should be referred to a notary who speaks the customer's language."

Do you speak their language or did you just try to explain in English?

Reply by Anonymous on 9/15/04 4:31pm
Msg #8017

Yes, I do speak their language and I made them aware of what they where signing and swearing or affirming to.

Reply by CarolynCO on 9/15/04 12:32pm
Msg #7999

Anonymous said "They had no idea what they were signing. They kept asking what the forms said or what did this word mean. They called their agent and he told them just to sign that everything was alright. "

I'm a notary first and I personally would never have notarized these documents. Hopefully, it won't happen, but they could come back and say they were coerced into signing forms they didn't understand -- and you are the one who notarized the documents -- it won't be any skin off the agent's nose.

Reply by Anonymous on 9/15/04 12:47pm
Msg #8000

I still have the documents, I have to fed ex them today. Any advise on what to do?

Reply by Jan Kohake on 9/15/04 1:38pm
Msg #8002

By California law a notary needs to screen for willingness by the one signing the notarized document. The notary really only need to concern herself with anything that is to be notarized. The borrowers knew they were signing loan documents. You are not authorized to sit and explain these docs to the borrowers, that is their loan officer's duty. The notary should be confident the signers are signing voluntarily. The borrowers should "appear" to understand what they are signing and act responsibly. If they can coherently respond to questions, they are considered sufficiently aware. I have been in this type of situation. I now make sure when I accept certain signings that the borrowers can understand English.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/15/04 2:16pm
Msg #8005

I am inclined to agree with Jan. IF they never said they could not read the documents. If they did say that, I do not know what the right thing is to do at this point, but I think you said you believe they understood the docs generally.

If they expressed to you that they understood what you said to them as a notary, that they knew the reason they were signing documents and understood the purpose of the signing, and, you properly id'd them, you have done your part as a notary.

If you are still concerned about it, document it in the form of a detailed letter to your files as to what your concerns are, and forget it.

You could also send a letter with the documents (typing "VIA: FEDEX tracking number" on the letter and keeping a copy of it) to say you ID'd the borrowers, were sure they understood what you said to them, but they expressed: "whatever they said" it might be helpful to the receiving end to know this and to decide if they want to re-do the docs or method of signing to secure their interest.

If they do not care, at least you have done your part.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 9/15/04 4:27pm
Msg #8016

Repeating the original posting:
I went to a signing the other day and the people did not read or understand English.
They had no idea what they were signing. They kept asking what the forms said or what did this word mean. They called their agent and he told them just to sign that everything was alright. When we where signing they kept saying he told us differently or he did not mention some of the facts. What is one to say in these cases? This is the first time this has happened to me.

From what "anonymous" said, the signers did not read or understand English nor understood the documents. If the borrowers kept asking questions and the answers did jive with what the broker told them, to me, that throws up so many red flags. I certainly wouldn't simply include a letter, I wouldn't notarize the documents.

Reply by Anonymous on 9/15/04 4:46pm
Msg #8018

I should have said they did not read and undersatand English completely. The wife did read and understand some English. And since I do talk thier language I translated any words she did not understand. I made sure that they understood to what they where swearing and affirming to in their language.

Thank you very much for your advise. I now know what to do the next time this happens.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/15/04 9:58pm
Msg #8049

Anon. said "I now know what to do the next time this happens."

Thanks for putting this on the forum for discussion. I think we'll all be better prepared and do the best we can to stop the signing before it happens under the same circumstance.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/15/04 9:45pm
Msg #8048

So good to have you Floridians back!!!
-----------

No doubt, your advice is good, as always, Paul, that "...I certainly wouldn't simply include a letter, I wouldn't notarize the documents." I certainly would not either...

But, the docs were already signed and notarized. So, it was too late to go with the choice of not notarizing them.

The question was (my words) "I still have the docs, any advice?"

And, Anonymous had posted to clarify the original post: "They stated that for the most part they understood what they were signing."

Thus, my reply to the question.

Reply by pan/nd on 9/15/04 7:58pm
Msg #8037

The other side of this coin is the title company or signing service that faxes you the so- called "junk docs" several of which need notarizing.

Those docs faxed from one company in particular were so poor in quality that I couldn't read them even though I knew basically what they said.

I called the company back and said in no uncertain terms that I would not notarize those documents because neither the borrowers nor anybody else could read them.

They faxed them again. Same problem. Other faxes from other companies came through on my fax machine fine. But, not from them.

They finally agreed to e-mail them. Problem solved, immediately.

Reply by Maureen /nh on 9/16/04 1:14am
Msg #8063

I do not understand why you are even asking this question if you keep qualifying it.
Either they did or did not understand the docs you were notarizing. Either you could or could not explain the docs to them in a language they understood.

If they didn't understand and you could not communicate with them you had no choice but to walk out.

I get the impression you think they were being ripped off. If it didn't invove notarized docs that's not your problem. Pretty awful huh? My only recourse in these cases has been to reiterate their right to recission and to point out that they had the right to show these docs to a lawyer or trusted person. Don't lose sleep over it. Your function is being a notary not a social worker. --Oh yes, I do lose sleep once in awhile.

Reply by mctinawall on 9/16/04 6:48pm
Msg #8118

I would have terminated the signing, contacted the lender and signing service (if one was involved) and explained the circumstances to them, telling them they needed to hire a signing agent fluent in the language of the client. The lender must have been aware of the language difficulties - at the beginning of the loan process! Sounds to me like a shady deal might have been happening - to the borrowers.