Posted by shadoulew/CA on 9/21/04 8:11pm
Msg #8554

What would you do with this one

Hi,
i had a loan the other day that the wife was doing by herself. The husband's name was on the DOT and a couple of other documents. i had the husband sign in the areas indicated by his name being printed there. i got a call today from the lender saying i should have had hime sign the RTC(his name wasn't on it), the TIL(his name wasn't on it) and the DOT which I had him sign even though there was not signature line indicated for him to sign , but he is listed within the DOT. I did not have him initial either. i figured since he was listed in the DOT to go ahead and have him sign. what would you guys have done? I've been at this almost 2 months, and i thought that if a signature was required by both parties then it would indicate it by having their names printed beneath the signature lines where they are supposed to sign.

Reply by Lois_MO on 9/21/04 8:27pm
Msg #8556

One of the signing companies I signed up for had a list of documents that need to be signed by non-borrowering individuals. I printed it off for future reference. Don't know what company it came from though. Just hope it is correct.
1. Truth in Lending Disclosure statement or
important terms of HELOC.
2. Itemization of Amount Financed
3. Deed of trust
4. All Riders (If applicable)
Adjustable Rate
PUD
Condo-4 Family
5. Notice of Right to Cancel
6. Signature/Name Affidavit
7. Documents Correction and Fees Due Agreement

Reply by HisHughness on 9/21/04 9:20pm
Msg #8562

The poster implied, though did not say so explicitly, that a generic list of documents for both spouses to sign could be used for all closings. I vigorously disagree.

Unless a signing agent has been instructed to use a list, to do so I think constitutes UPL. The signing agent is making a decision about which documents are appropriate to sign, and that is a legal decision. If the notary cannot even recommend whether to use a jurat or an acknowledgment, he certainly should not be designating which documents should be executed by which parties.

Reply by Hampton/CA on 9/21/04 9:45pm
Msg #8565

Although I know the docs that the non-borrowing spouse is supposed to sign, I don't know all of the details of their particular loan. Thus, I don't have them sign unless their names are on the docs or there are instructions to do so.

I did a signing for GAC with the non-borrowing spouse signing the correct docs, but the lender had not printed her name on the TIL, so I didn't have her sign it. I got a second order from GAC to go out and have her sign the TIL, and I was paid for the trip.

Reply by shadoulew/CA on 9/21/04 10:07pm
Msg #8568

Sorry, I'm still confused. So what would be the purpose of having the non-borrowing spouse sign the loan documents if he is not part of the loan. I mean if his information was not taken and used as a deciding factor as to whether or not the loan was obtained, what is the use of having him sign the documents especially if it is not indicated on the loan documents?

Reply by HisHughness on 9/21/04 10:20pm
Msg #8571

In a community property state, the non-borrowing spouse still has an interest in the property, and thus should be on the deed and several other documents that impact that interest in the property.

Reply by shadoulew/CA on 9/21/04 10:26pm
Msg #8572

Is this something i should know or are they supposed to let me know which documents those are? If so is the list from the previous post accurate, or should the lender indicate to me specifically which documents this applies to?

Reply by HisRoyalHughness on 9/21/04 10:35pm
Msg #8573

For every closing, the title company should specifically tell you who signs what documents. If you do signings frequently for the title company, they could provide you a list and instructions that those documents are always to be signed by both spouses. In either case, you are acting under the directions of the title company, not exercising your independent discretion.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/21/04 11:37pm
Msg #8584

In a perfect world, you should be told every time. In reality, it's sort of "assumed" you will know. As to the posting of the list that Hugh termed UPL, he's probably right about that in the purest sense of it all, BUT...

If I were you, I might be inclined to keep it handy for the next time I saw the non-obligated borrower on the DOT/Mortgage and not on the Note.

If there are no instructions about it with the docs, now you will know to pick up the phone and call the title company and say "Just to make sure, do you want Mrs. Non-obligated Borrower to sign the ..." and start down the list." They will tell you what to do--and should have.

I did one the other day where "Betty" signed the note. A man who was 12 years younger than the Betty, signed as the non-obligated borrower on the DOT and other docs required.

I mention age because the title company referred to him as "the son." The woman (73) referred to him as "her son." But, "the son" (61) referred to her as Betty and the last names did not jive for the mother/son story--but I am the notary and I don't care what the relationship is as long as I can ID them.

I had called and left a message for the title company because there were no docs included for "the son" to sign except for the DOT. Right before I got there, the title company called and said, yes, you are correct--the scheduler should have sent you a checklist. (Well...she didn't, but fortunately, I DID know to call about it and now you will too.)

He goes on to say: The son is a non-obligated borrower and will need to sign the regular documents for that, but find out if he has a wife. If he does, she needs to sign those also, please ID her and add her to the documents.

There was an extra marital affidavit (extra-marital affidavit???) so I went ahead and had him sign one that stated that he was/was not / had never been married just for good measure and figured they could toss it if they did not need it. (I'll bet they needed it in this situation.)

It was a really entertaining signing because "the son" provided me a student ID and a voter's registration card. I pressed for the TDL. He stated verbatim, "Wellllll, we've all been bad boys you know." (Whatever that meant. I could not figure out a way that "Being bad boys" would excuse proper ID. )

I just smiled and said, "Sure, but I still need to see it, or I'll need to call the lender and ask if I can use your student ID." So he produced the TDL. It was taped on a manila envelope which probably came with his car after he got out of jail. I did not look to see what all it said, but it was something of that nature.

Anyhow, during the signing, I drew a line for him on the docs required and on we went.

The point of all this is that you probably should just call the title company when you come into that situation and get it straight from them. If there had been a wife, I would have caught it because I know the reason the DOT is signed by the non-obligated borrower. However, before writing anything on the DOT, et al, I would have needed to call during the signing just to get the okay to add her because I am not a lawyer or title officer--just a notary.

In simplest terms, the theory behind all this is in <<TEXAS>>, if you tamper with someone's home by putting a lien on it, you have to let the other person who is living there know and approve of it. Even if a husband is the only one the mortgage company wants on the note because of whatever reason, the wife has to sign to agree to her home being mortgaged.

(Always remember and never forget: Do your own fact finding. Whatever happens in one state may not have anything to do with another state. Learn what has to happen in your state. I may be criminally insane and a liar, so always get the answers from the folks who are sending you out with the documents.)

Reply by shadoulew/CA on 9/21/04 11:45pm
Msg #8586

Re: thanks! Next time I'll know

thank-you!!(and a very entertaining story i might add!!) I will make a copy of the list of item's and next time i will know to call the lender for clarification. By the way did you ask him for some work referrals from the jail?(LOL)

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/22/04 12:15am
Msg #8588

Re: thanks! Next time I'll know

No. Darn, did not think to, but I hear the notary jail business has some viability!

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/22/04 12:45am
Msg #8594

Re: thanks! Next time I'll know Brenda

"No. Darn, did not think to, but I hear the notary jail business has some viability! "

Brenda - as long as you don't have to eat there, take it from me, prison food is terrible!!!

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/22/04 7:58am
Msg #8606

Re: thanks! Next time I'll know Brenda

Sylvia said: "Brenda - as long as you don't have to eat there, take it from me, prison food is terrible!!!"

Sylvia ???? Eating in prison???

We can only hope that Sylvia ate prison food while there as a notary and not doing hard-time....or not there visiting her "Pops" !! (;>) (Just kidding, I know she was there as a notary. Also, PAW and "Cool Hand Luke" are only similar in the number of boiled eggs they can eat in one sitting.)

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/22/04 10:08am
Msg #8621

Re: thanks! Next time I'll know Brenda

Brenda, as you are aware notaries in Florida also perform weddings.
I appear to be the "official" officiant for the weddings at a correctional facility about 1.1/2 hours away from me. One I did there last year, the prison chaplain (the chaplain is always at the weddings, but he will not officiate), offered to feed the wedding party - which consisted of the bride, the groom(the prisoner) and the bride and grooms couple of relatives and me. The food was terrible. The groom was really enjoying it though. The bride asked him if this was the food he got in his cell. He said it wasn't, it wasn't as good as this, this food is reserved for the staff. I can't imagine what the prisoner's food was like if this was better!!!

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/22/04 10:20am
Msg #8622

Re: thanks! Next time I'll know Brenda

Sylvia, You need to post the highlights of that story online somewhere - it's a good read. I do not have the "guts" to try to jail notary business. How was it you got into that?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/22/04 10:23am
Msg #8624

Re: thanks! Next time I'll know Brenda

Brenda
I believe the story is in a SR newsletter, either the last one or the one before it. (How I got into it, I don't think I had done that particular wedding when I submitted the article for the newsletter)

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 9/22/04 10:26am
Msg #8627

Re: thanks! Next time I'll know Brenda

There's no jail around that could keep Sylvia! Sooner or later, she'd drive everybody nuts and they would have to let her out just to maintain their sanity!! (he he)

Reply by Lois_MO on 9/22/04 12:26am
Msg #8590

Just as Brenda said, I kept the list for a reference. Thought it might come in handy someday. And I would definitely call and ask instead of assuming that all the docs listed would be signed by the non-borrower. I, too, have learned alot from this forum. I don't write in much, but I'm here EveryNight taking it all in. Thanks for all the information you have shared. I have actually printed several items discussed on this board for future reference. I know now, that I should have been more thorough on my other posting. I just knew when I read the post that I had this list that may be of help. I don't think I have the experience to tell someone, yet, what to do or not to do since I'm still learning too. Just sharing what I have, not what I know or don't know.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/22/04 12:41am
Msg #8592

Don't tell anyone, Lois, but I need the occasional cheat sheet to sound like I know what's going on early in the morning. My wall is covered with them.

Your GAC list was a pretty thorough one and I will probably keep it to refer to for "talking points."

Most of the time they send one. But when they don't it helps to have a cheat sheet. I am not accomplished at talking right off the top of my head, but I can do a heck of a job if I have a little bit of help. (;>)

Reply by HisHughness on 9/22/04 12:34am
Msg #8591

BrendaTX admitted:

***I may be criminally insane and a liar, so always get the answers from the folks who are sending you out with the documents.)***

I think that's a bit strong, Brenda. I think it's more like you're a madcap fantasizer when you've fallen off your meds.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/22/04 8:33am
Msg #8609

Hugh comments: "...I think it's more like you're a madcap fantasizer when you've fallen off your meds"

Just because I think, "Brenda: The Notary Public" would make good reality TV?

Reply by Paul_IL on 9/22/04 12:19am
Msg #8589

I believe that if you know your state requires the non-borrowing spouse to sign specific documents you should do so. You would not believe the number of out of state lenders and title companies who are unaware that Illinois being a homestead state requires spouses to sign specific docs on all primary residences. I fail to see how following your state regulations is UPL if it were then the loan office, loan processor and settlement agent would all be guilty as they decide which form you sign. JMHO

Reply by hishughness on 9/22/04 12:43am
Msg #8593

You can also know on what documents state law requires a jurat or an acknowledgment, but you are not authorized to make that choice for the borrower. You're free to give your opinion of anything under the law, but when you give that opinion in a transaction for which you're being paid, with the expectation that the party will act upon it, that's practicing law. FYI, I am in the same position as everybody else. I am retired and on inactive status and in addition do not have a Texas license, so in the state where I am a notary I'm not a lawyer, either. I do think like one, though, which means I overcharge when possible and hit on the good-looking clients. (In the event my lovely and talented wife ever reads the NotRot archives, I'm just kidding about that second one. Really. Seriously.)

Reply by Paul_IL on 9/22/04 12:47am
Msg #8595

Well being a Title Agent has a few benefits one being that I can tell people what documents need to be signed regarding a real estate transactions.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 9/22/04 5:49am
Msg #8602

Then being a Title Agent you should also know that there may be other conditions that you, as an NSA, are not privy to, such as a QCD or SWD that may exclude the interests of the non-obligated spouse. You can never assume that a list from one signing will apply equally to another, even for property within the same state.

Reply by Paul_IL on 9/22/04 10:33am
Msg #8629

PAW,
Was just telling what is required in Illinois. And as an FYI it does not matter if a previous QCD was done. When the Refi is recorded the wife is back on and a new QCD must be recorded so if one is not included then call the individual title company who will tell you to have spouse sign the legals as they did not prepare a new QCD. This only applies to primary residence properties.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/22/04 12:50am
Msg #8596

Re: What would you do with this one - Hugh

You are right Hugh - we cannot make that choice. We don;t know if the spouse has signed a QCD or anything, whereas she/he does not have to sign the legals.

On the jurat/acknowledgment, although we are told we cannot determine which certificate to attach to a document, we are also told (in Florida) that if the words sworn appear on the document we have to use a jurat. So, many a time, when the lender has an acknowledgment on the document, I have had to change it to a jurat.

Paul can give you the statute - I am too tired to look it up now, and he will probably be on here before me in the morning.

I am heading for bed now!

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 9/22/04 5:58am
Msg #8603

Re: What would you do with this one - Hugh

Sylvia quipped: "Paul can give you the statute ..."

Florida Statutes §117.03 Administration of oaths "The notary public may not take an acknowledgment of execution in lieu of an oath if an oath is required." Requirements are such that a document contains wording such as, sworn to, under oath, deposes, affiant, etc.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/21/04 11:00pm
Msg #8574

Lois
That list may be OK for some companies but not all.
If the non-obligator spouse has to sign any of the docs, it is usually the Mortgage (Deed of Trust) and any riders, the RTC and the TIL.
But, some companies also want all the title docs signing, and the Correction agreement.
If a company tells me to have the non-obligator spouse sign "the legals" I say to them, "you mean the mortgage, the RTC and the TIL" then they can say that is fine, or they can tell me which extra docs they need signing.

But it is not up to us to decide which docs the non-obligator spouse has to sign - as Hugh said, this would be considered UPL.

Reply by shadoulew/CA on 9/21/04 11:07pm
Msg #8576

Re: Thanks for all of you guys' input!!

Thanks to all you gals/ guys for your input ! Now I don't feel so stupid. Hugh, you're right, all the knowledge on this board is better than any "certifications" I could get!! I read this board EVERY day along with gomobilenotary. Thanks for your knowledgable answers and not making me feel stupid for asking the question!!!!

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/21/04 11:02pm
Msg #8575

As you had him sign the DOT,he should have initialed as well. When initials are required, both signers should initial as well.

Reply by shadoulew/CA on 9/21/04 11:08pm
Msg #8577

Makes sense, thank-you.