Posted by BrendaTX on 9/18/04 8:54pm
Msg #8326

Word Game: Closing vs Signing

Am I overly concerned about interchanging the words "Signing appointment" rather than "Closing?" "Signing agent" rather than "Closer?"

I am under the impression that the "closing" is after the documents have left my hands and have been blessed by some other authority. But, I could certainly be wrong. I am looking for clarification from the NotRot elders.

We are accumulating a lot of new signing agents and this might be something to consider discussing.

New signing agents may become confused without clarification about our appointments and sign documents that should not be signed because they are under the impression that they are "Closers."

Perhaps, if you do not agree that this is an important point for the enlightenment of new signing agents you can hint gently through your replies to this post that I am just a nut who should be ignored because I tend to take my commission, personal liability, responsiblity and the whole deal about accuracy way too seriously.

My concerns about such things usually don't matter 99% of the time, but it's that devilish 1% that keeps me up at night. <-- Okay, that's not accurate--it's a big fat lie. Nothing ever keeps me up if I am tired.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/18/04 9:10pm
Msg #8327

My understanding is that we are closers in the common parlance of the trade. We are NOT settlement agents; those are people who disburse funds.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 9/19/04 9:18am
Msg #8354

Hugh is always right.
The closing agent actually orders the payoffs and guarantees that the HUD is correct. We are the signing agent. I never sign anything that says "closing agent".

Reply by CarolynCO on 9/20/04 9:10am
Msg #8424

HisHughness said "My understanding is that we are closers in the common parlance of the trade."

I don't think I'm a closer. I agree with Brenda in that the closer's duties happen after my notary or signing duties.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/20/04 9:26am
Msg #8425

Carolyn: You and I are from similar backgrounds, I think. Both of us seem aware that no matter what we believe we know, without a law degree, we have learned to be careful with what we confidently say that we know--especially when we are being notary signing agents.

It's my understanding that a "closing" is the event where all signatures are placed in finality including the title company and lender.

When the borrowers sign, as we all know, that's no guarantee the loan is closed and the loan will fund. That's the part that concerns me about using a word like "closing."

Though I am ever appreciative of what I've learned from lawyers, it sure makes me concerned over details that others can quite easily gloss over--and maybe should. That's why I raised the topic for discussion.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/20/04 10:31am
Msg #8432

BrendaTX opined:

***no matter what we believe we know, without a law degree, we have learned to be careful with what we confidently say that we know***

You're absolutely right, Brenda. Since I've had my law degree, I expound with supreme confidence on damned near anything, whether I know anything about it or not. And God help a layman who does that.

Reply by CarolynCO on 9/20/04 10:35am
Msg #8433

Brenda said "You and I are from similar backgrounds, I think. Both of us seem aware that no matter what we believe we know, without a law degree, we have learned to be careful with what we confidently say that we know--especially when we are being notary signing agents."

I agree. The knowledge that we've both gained through the years from attorneys and the courts, at least with me, has instilled not only a cautionary choice of words in what I *think* I know, but also a need to question acts or statements that others perform or say or gloss over, as you say, and sometimes even question what I do. Now if that's not an attorney two-step ...

**It's my understanding that a "closing" is the event where all signatures are placed in finality including the title company and lender.**

My husband and I purchased our home in 1988. I know, it's rare in this day and age that we are still in the same house. We went to the Bank and "closed" and the loan was guaranteed at that time. I agree with you 100% that the docs we have borrowers sign and notarize are not funded at the time of signing, and are not a guarentee that the loan will fund or close.

I've had some docs (i.e., signature affidavit) where I was to sign as Closer. I'm not the Closer so I cross through it and write Notary, but there are some docs (I can't think of the particular ones right now) where there is a signature block for Closer and it is ACTUALLY for the Closer or someone who gets the docs after me. I always have to take a second or third look at these particular docs to make sure that I am not to sign as the Notary or Notary Signing Agent.

I don't believe the topic should be glossed over and I'm glad you raised it.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/20/04 10:36am
Msg #8434

Signing companies and occasionally title companies will sometimes refer to us as closing agents when they actually mean signing agents. On one document in particular, the ID certification, the term "closing agent" is frequently used, as I recall, when it is obviously intended to be signed by a signing agent. Also, in recruiting signing agents, SS sometimes use the term "closer" or loan closer.

I agree that it is an incorrect use of the term. The problem is, you really need to know the difference between a closing agent/settlement agent and a signing agent before you know whether they are talking about you.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/20/04 11:18am
Msg #8440

My point exactly, Hugh.

Hugh: >>>Signing companies and occasionally title companies will sometimes refer to us as closing agents when they actually mean signing agents. <<<

Me: Or, remote closer, independant loan closer. And, if that's what they call us, that's their business and they are the ones implying such. If we take on the job, we need to think about what all it implies, or doesn't imply.

Hugh says:>>>I agree that it is an incorrect use of the term. The problem is, you really need to know the difference between a closing agent/settlement agent and a signing agent before you know whether they are talking about you.<<<<

Me: And, that's why I put this question out there. It might be good to get the newer posters thinking about attaching themselves to facts vs. nebulous perceptions which they might gather from any number of sources.

Reply by Gerry from VT on 9/19/04 2:07pm
Msg #8375

The word that I would quibble over is "agent". To me, an agent is someone who acts on behalf of someone else. So who is the notary acting for? The state? The borrower? The lender? Some of each? I think it would help a notary make ethical decisions if he/she knows who he/she is working for?

Reply by Grayce NJ on 9/19/04 6:12pm
Msg #8387

Closing comes from, "Close of Escrow". Since most of the loans closed by Notaries are re-fis or HELOCs, escrow does not "close" until the RTC nas expried. Unless you are a licensed Title agent, you cannot "close" the loan.

Reply by sue on 9/19/04 7:17pm
Msg #8393

you are the agent of the title company. if something goes wrong, their insurance will cover you and then come after you.

as a notary you are acting for your state. as a signing agent, you are acting for whoever sends you your check.

unfortunately, seldom is anyone working for the borrower.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 9/19/04 7:33pm
Msg #8396

I have had this discussion with other notaries, closing agents, settlement agents, loan officers, and lawyers. And having been previously employed by a very large lending institution, I am thoroughly convinced that in no manner are we to be considered closing agents.

Our function is two fold and we wear two hats at the table. Only one hat can be worn at any given time. I also don't consider that we are a signing agent first and a notary second, nor a notary first and a signing agent second. These are two separate and distinct functions, though most signing agents are also notaries public.

Anyway, as a Signing Agent, you are an agent acting on behalf of the title company's closing agent or settlement agent. We perform what the industry commonly refer to as a "witness closing" in that we are the eyes for the closing/settlement agent and may be the only person a borrower sees during the process. Though we act as an agent, our duties and responsibilities are extremely limited and may or may not be define by a written contract.

The second role that we perform is that of a Notary Public. This is an official state position that has no bearing on being a Signing Agent other than the documents that the Signing Agent presents to the borrowers for signature must be notarized. When performing the notarial act, we are acting strictly within the parlance of the Office of a Notary Public, regardless of the document(s) being presented. We must follow our specific state laws in the performance of our office.

Having said all the above, I do work as a "closer" frequently. I am "hired" by title companies specifically for the purpose of closing the loan. In that regard, I have more leeway in what I can and cannot do at the closing table. I am responsible for the disbursement of funds, can actually make changes to the HUD (or effect their change) and actually discuss how fees are generated and applied. However, when it comes to lender issues, just like being a Signing Agent, the loan officer must be involved. Title Officers cannot change lender docs without approval and direction from the lender. Same for Signing Agents. These "gigs" are most often completed at the title company office under a Closing Officer or Title Officer's supervision.

Reply by Jon on 9/19/04 9:30pm
Msg #8402

In my experience, the terms vary depending on where you are located and the company you are contracted by. In regards to affidavits or other statements about the loan, I sign only what I actually verify. If the contents or part of the contents do not apply to me, then I won't sign the document.

Reply by Julie-MI on 9/20/04 10:24pm
Msg #8475

hope this shows up under Jon's post

This subject has been around for a long time.

As Jon said, it depends on where you live.

To the borrowers, I tell them I'm confirming for their loan closing. This is what we do in MI, when we purchase or refinance home. We have our closing appts. Been doing this since 1983. I do this so the borrower knows what the appt is for and so they don't ask me how to be a notary.

To the lender or title company, I am NOT a settlement agent/escrow agent, etc. I don't sign as one or represent myself on any of the documents that I am a settlement agent.

The "closing" is two parts, the execution of the documents and disbursement of the loan. I do the execution part and the title company does the disbursement. I usually tell my borrowers "I'm just the messenger so you don't have to go to a title company; however I do not bring coffee and donuts."