Posted by Anonymous on 4/9/05 4:40am
Msg #30646

Borrowers INITIALS on Docs

Does the borrower have to initial EVERY page in a loan package?

Reply by Mike/NJ on 4/9/05 6:29am
Msg #30647

Depends on the lender, Franklin First wants all non signature pages initaled. Most cases it's only the Mortgage, Note and Riders.

Reply by Victoria/FL on 4/9/05 7:12am
Msg #30649

No, unless they tell you specifically in your instructions (I have one company that requires it).

Reply by Reggie on 4/9/05 9:26am
Msg #30653

Not required but I do it because of protection for the borrower and my protection. The borrowere is protected because no one can slip in another document that he did not see. I am protected because
this shows I showed the borrower every page of the documents.

Reggie
Kansas

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/9/05 9:29am
Msg #30654

I don't - only if it is required.
Some companies do not like you having each page initialed.

Reply by LawrenceOK on 4/9/05 10:02am
Msg #30660

No initiales unless it's required, but I do put a small x in the lower right hand corner of every doc I hand to the borrower.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 4/9/05 10:10am
Msg #30662

>>> I do put a small x in the lower right hand corner of every doc <<<

May I suggest you DO NOT do that on recordable (DOT/mortgage) docs. Some jurisdictions require a minimum margin on all recordable docs and if there are marks in the margin, the doc may be rejected.

Reply by LawrenceOK on 4/9/05 10:18am
Msg #30663

Your Right Paw, I DO NOT put them on dot/mortgage. So far I have not had any returns, but if I ever do, I will do my duty and return at my expence.

Reply by Ted_MI on 4/9/05 10:59am
Msg #30673

Reggie,

Let me say first off that I respect your right to conduct your signings as you see fit. However, with respect to your perspective that your actions reflected the fact that you showed the borrower every page of the package, I trust you would keep in mind that hopefully the signing service or title company would accord you a fair amount of professional respect, that you would do the job that you were retained to do in the appropriate manner.

And by the same token, often times the borrowers receive a package which is the mirror image of what is in the original package.

Also I would think that such a course of action would prolong the signings more so than really necessary.

For your information, I handled a signing Thursday night and the package was 146 pages long !! (yes, it was Ameriquest). If I had had the borrowers (yes, there were two of them) initial every single page, I never would have gotten out of there. As it was, I was there for what seemed like an eternity !!

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/9/05 11:31am
Msg #30677

Ted
I did some Ameriquests for a closing company out of Orlando, and they requested that every page the borrowers did not sign be initialed! The particular Ameriquest office was requesting it. So, I know how long it takes with those loans.
I no longer accept Ameriquest signings! I hate them!

Reply by Ted_MI on 4/9/05 8:28pm
Msg #30747

Re: Ameriquest signing

Sylvia,

I can fully appreciate where you are coming from. I believe the signing took me two hours and fifteen minutes!! Luckily the borrowers didn't live very far away from me. And I was mortified initially when I realized that it was a refinance of a vacation home in northern Michigan. So I thought to myself "Oh. Oh - no three day right of rescission". Well, not only was there a three day right of rescission, there was also ameriquest's week right.

And it wasn't like I had never done an Ameriquest refinance package before. So I was more or less familiar with the documents. And a lot of the documents are similar to those in other refinancings. I just wonder why a lot of those documents have to be notarized. And then you know you have to enter all the info into your journal. And all that info for the identification page. My goodness. But I was careful, because I didn't want to screw it up. And I did tell the borrowers what each document was, rather than just "heh, sign here". And we did have to call the ss to get a question with respect to a document resolved.

But it did just take forever. I hope I don't get a call to do another real soon.

Reply by Lee/AR on 4/9/05 2:06pm
Msg #30695

With Reggie, but have a really dumb question

For those of you who DO NOT have all pages initialed. What, exactly, do you actually do when you get to a page that requires the BWR to do nothing... just flip it into your pile and move on? Flash it at them? Riffle the pages that don't need initialing, signing?
(I would think that any of these actions would cause some concern... what is this person hiding? Yep, the answer is: You have a complete copy to read at your leisure.) Still... What do you actually do?

Reply by Stephen_VA on 4/9/05 2:11pm
Msg #30698

Re: With Reggie, but have a really dumb question

I place the document in front of the person, tell them that it does not need to be signed or initialed, and ask them to indicate to me when to remove the document. This process only takes an extra second and the only complaint that I've had is that was not fast enough....

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/9/05 2:42pm
Msg #30708

Re: With Reggie, but have a really dumb question

On another list a signing agent recently posted that they have to redo the loan signing because they had the borrower initial every document they weren't signing.
Seems stupid to me, but it happened.

Reply by HisHughness on 4/9/05 2:54pm
Msg #30711

Re: With Reggie, but have a really dumb question

Lee asks about respective practices of presenting documents to borrowers:

***What do you actually do?***

If the borrowers have expressed a firm desire to motor right on through the signing with no explanations, I present only the signature page of any document to be signed; the rest, including documents that require no borrower action, are flipped over into the "done" stack. If the borrower wishes, I will give a one or two-sentence explanation of the intent of a document, present them the entire document stacked except for the signature page, which is pulled out where the signature line is visible. If, as in HELOCs, there are several copies of the same document, after the first copy I present only the signature page. The only document I ever present to the borrower that requires no action is the flood certification; maybe, on occasion, the amortization schedule.

Reply by Lee/AR on 4/9/05 9:06pm
Msg #30760

Thanks, HisHughness! I'll try this with the next Ameriquest.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 4/9/05 8:19pm
Msg #30745

Re: With Reggie, but have a really dumb question

Usually I show them the pages and tell them what they are for. Quite often, if I have time to prescan the docs, I will clip things that aren't important to the borrowers, like the instructions to escrow and closing instructions, unless they need to sign them. I always tell the borrowers that they will find lender's instructions to the title company in their documents which make for interesting reading, if they are so inclined.

On example is Citibank HELOCs. The terms and conditions are 11 pages, but the "numbers" are all on page one. To minimize the time, I explain to the borrower that there are 11 pages of terms and conditions that should be reviewed during the RTC period, and if they have any questions, they need to discuss it with their broker. 98% of the time, the borrowers are aware of the terms and conditions with the Citibank HELOC and they are glad just to move on. In the many that I have done, I have had only one borrower want to look over the terms, knowing full well what they are. That's the problem with corporate contract litigators!

Reply by Ted_MI on 4/9/05 8:38pm
Msg #30750

Re: Heh, Lee - I thought it was a good question n/m

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/9/05 9:46pm
Msg #30765

Re: With Reggie, but have a really dumb question

I just give little stacks to the borrower with instructions on which page to sign - sign the top page only, sign the last page only, initial the first page and sign all the rest, etc. I never put documents directly into the "complete" pile, as I don't want anybody to think I'm trying to slip something past them.

I never explain anything about the docs unless they specifically ask me a question. The exception is the note, where I'll point out their interest rate, monthly payment, first payment date and length of loan.

Reply by missymrtn_socal on 4/9/05 9:55pm
Msg #30768

Re: With Reggie, but have a really dumb question

We just had our own refi, and the SA that came out did it this way as well. I've always done it page by page, but she was literally up and out within FIFTEEN MINUTES. Granted, it was a pretty simple package, but this lady was FAST!

She handed each 'packet' to us, with the signature page slid up and visible. She didn't explain any docs, and we didn't ask any questions...so that fit nicely. She just pointed out the high points of the note.
I was impressed with her speed and efficiency!

Reply by Anonymous on 4/9/05 2:07pm
Msg #30696

That's not a bad idea!

Reply by Lalas_socal on 4/9/05 4:49pm
Msg #30723

my main lender FREAKS if there are extra initials on the docs(where not specified) they put huge flourescent flyers with BIG PRINT to specify notaries NOT to initial except in the case of a mistake or change. shows just how different each company does things.

Reply by Ted_MI on 4/9/05 8:48pm
Msg #30754

Lalas,

I had a HELOC signing this afternoon where it turned out, lo and behold, that the borrowers were secret closet initial freaks. After they initialed the mortgage (at my request) they were bent on initialing everything else, all the documents that followed. Even though I indicated it really wasn't necessary.

You are wondering if one of the borrowers was an attorney? Yes, you are correct in your hunch.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 4/9/05 9:04pm
Msg #30758

I had one signing that took over 3 hours because the husband and wife made up the NSA's worse nightmare. She was a Real Estate attorney and he was a CPA for a large lender. They both wanted to read each and every word. It was difficult pushing them through the signing. If I had let them have their way, I'd probably still be there as they re-read and discussed the 16 page mortgage.

And that brings up another signing I had, that ended up not funding, because this young legal beagle (a corporate attorney, still wet behind the ears), took a pen to the mortgage and made changes to it, on just about every page. Needless to say, the lender refused to honor the requests the lawyer wrote.

Reply by Lee/AR on 4/9/05 9:14pm
Msg #30761

2 sentences to cure the 'readers'...

Look, it's their money--so it's their paperwork & if you want their money, you gotta sign their paperwork. If you don't like their terms, just don't sign it & I'll go home.

Reply by Ernest_CT on 4/10/05 12:20am
Msg #30791

You can't be serious. I hope. n/m

Reply by Ted_MI on 4/9/05 9:52pm
Msg #30767

Paul,

I don't know if the attorney and his wife read every word of the mortgage and the HELOC Agreement and Disclosure, but they sure did go through them pretty carefully. And on about the third page of the agreement there was about a four inch space that was totally blank space. The attorney wrote in in big bloc letters "Intentionally Left Blank". Now was that necessary? No, I really don't think so, as the borrowers' copy of the agreement had the same blank space.

As to the "young legal beagle" making changes to the mortgage, I can understand that. As I imagine that you are aware a defense to any legal action in these circumstances would probably be that it was "all boiler plate" and that "I didn't have any options, it was presented to me on a "take it or leave it basis" ". Now how far one would get with that defense, I really am not sure. But it is sort of a classic defense.

Reply by HisHughness on 4/9/05 10:07pm
Msg #30771

Ted comments about borrowers changing documents in a loan package:

***As I imagine that you are aware a defense to any legal action in these circumstances would probably be that it was "all boiler plate" and that "I didn't have any options, it was presented to me on a "take it or leave it basis" ". Now how far one would get with that defense, I really am not sure. But it is sort of a classic defense.***

A contract presented to you on a take-it-or-leave-it basis, when there is only one supplier for the goods or services, is called an "adhesion contract," as I recall, and the law does not favor them. My recollection is that they can be enforced if they are reasonable, but if the presenter seeks to take advantage of the lack of alternatives, they will be strictly scrutinized.