Posted by CA on 4/9/05 10:55am
Msg #30672

He Copied Docs at Signing

The Borrower's Son kept sneaking off and making copies of doc's that his mother signed (he wasn't a signer). It was very difficult to keep control of the documents with him, he kept leaning over and taking them out of order (I would polightly ask him to wait for his copy of the doc's at the end). This was after he had already read them for his mother and gave it to her to sign. I obviously lost control of this signing, and I am just wanting to know how bad it is that he was making copies of signed docs without my knowledge. I only noticed at the end when he tried to sneak one doc back in the stack. I thought he was just getting up and down a lot. uuuuuuggggg...

Reply by Fay, CA on 4/9/05 11:17am
Msg #30676

Your message was disconcerting. Query: why did the son feel it necessary to sneak off and copy the signed docs when all he had to do was ask you if he could do so and after you gave him permission to do so, he could wait until all the documents were signed first? I am sure he thought he was protecting his mother's interests but you are in control of the situation.

Reply by CA on 4/9/05 11:42am
Msg #30678

Thats why I was wondering... I did not think much of it until after I left.... They didn't know how to fill out the tax form (she was the seller) I am not allowed to advise them on it, and the form did come with the booklet of questions and answers, and they were reading it. I never told him he couldn't copy docs, and he never asked. He was just a little sneaky about doing it. I did place a note in the package that she may have a question regarding the tax forms.

Reply by CarolynCO on 4/9/05 2:41pm
Msg #30707

*I never told him he couldn't copy docs, and he never asked. He was just a little sneaky about doing it. *

IMO, that's where you made your mistake and was not in control of the signing, but instead the son was the one in charge.

Reply by Sherri_ In on 4/9/05 5:51pm
Msg #30725

You have referred to her as both the borrower and the seller, I am wondering which it is?

I ask because the seller should always receive copies of the signed Deed, HUD and Affidavits. The signed deed because that is the only proof of sale, if there is a problem with the recording since the original will be mailed back to the buyers. The HUD would be for her taxes.

I assume when you were talking about the tax form you were talking about the 1099 or 1099S. The 1099S if very confusing to some people since the some of the questions are double negatives. If you tell them to read the questions out loud and let them know that some of them they are answering that yes my answer is no or no my answer is yes it helps them better understand.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/9/05 12:01pm
Msg #30682

I would not have allowed it. When I pass a document over to be signed, as soon as it is signed I take it back and I am in possession of it.
I have had people ask if they can have a copy of the signed docs. I explain that I have a copy of the documents for them, but if they want a copy of the signed docs they need to contact their lender so they can get a copy complete with ALL signatures. I do not have the time to wait for them to make copies of the signed docs as I am running a little behind on my next appointment.

Reply by Jon on 4/9/05 12:22pm
Msg #30688

I agree...

That is exactly what I do. Did you teach me or did I teach you?????

Reply by PAW_Fl on 4/9/05 12:46pm
Msg #30689

Only wish I had the time to fully reply!

Reply by Reginald Wilks on 4/9/05 2:17pm
Msg #30699

Do you wait until your finished to give them their copies? If so, why don't you give their copies as soon as you set down at the table to start signing and explain that they have a copy of everything and that if they would like they can read them at their convencience.

Reggie
Kansas

Reply by MsRobbo on 4/9/05 2:24pm
Msg #30701

I always give the docs prior to signing the originals. The borrower(s) can follow what their signing with their copies and I would not allow them to make copies of signed docs. They know what they are signing (if a borrower doesn't understand a doc then you can explain the doc to them) and there is a copy included for their information.

Reply by CarolynCO on 4/9/05 2:43pm
Msg #30709

Re: UPL ???

*(if a borrower doesn't understand a doc then you can explain the doc to them)*

There is a *very* fine line between explaining and UPL.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/9/05 2:45pm
Msg #30710

No - you cannot explain the docs

You can identify a document to the signer, but you cannot explain it to them, unless you are an attorney - that is considered UPL and can lead to serious consequences as some notaries have discovered.

Reply by HisHughness on 4/9/05 3:02pm
Msg #30714

Re: No - you cannot explain the docs

Sylvia explains:

***You can identify a document to the signer, but you cannot explain it to them, unless you are an attorney - that is considered UPL and can lead to serious consequences as some notaries have discovered.***

Sylvia, what is the difference between "explaining" a document and "identifying" it? Do you just read the heading on the document -- something the borrower himself can do? Do you say "This is an 8.5X11 inch piece of papeer with writing on it?" I have never understood what is meant when people say that it's okay to identify, but not to explain.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/9/05 2:36pm
Msg #30705

First a lot of companies do not like you leaving the copies with the borrowers if they do not sign. And once you have given the copies to the borrower it is hard to get them back.

Second, the borrower would tend to be following along with their copies, and sometimes they like to look ahead at the pages, and it adds extra time to the signing.

I do let them know at the beginning that they will be getting a copy of everything they are signing as soon as we are finished. I leave the copies in my briefcase until everything is signed.

Reply by HisHughness on 4/9/05 2:59pm
Msg #30713

I've never had a borrower refuse to return the copies of the documents if a loan craters at signing.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 4/9/05 8:28pm
Msg #30746

I have had that happen... once. Ever since then, I tell the borrowers upon successful completion of the signing, they will get a prize... their own copies which they are can go through and sign and initial if they so desire. (And, if they're in a good mood, I tell them I will call them in 2 days and quiz them on their loan. That usually results in laughter and the rest of the signing is a breeze, as long as there's no "gotchas" along the way.)

If I have the time, I will try to put the borrowers copies in the same presentation order that I do at the table. Even if I don't have the time, I will always pull the RTC and put them on top of their copy, unless there is a non-rescission form, which would go on top of the rescission forms. This is followed by the HUD.

Reply by HisHughness on 4/9/05 2:56pm
Msg #30712

I give them their copy up front, but ask them to put them aside so that the copy won't get mixed up with the signing packet.

Reply by CA on 4/9/05 3:11pm
Msg #30716

I was trained to keep the copy until the signing is complete then give them the copy. I just wanted to know if he wasn't supposed to have the signed doc cop... I know I am not allowed to answer questions. I tell them what the document is that they are signing and that is it. That is why I don't understand the signing agecies and the loan Q.s and tests. Thats a different topic of discussion. I am there to witness a signing that's it. I had one agency as questions like what is the different between fixed and adjsutable rate. Why would I need to explain that to a signer. I f I am not alowed to give advice why would a Notary explain interest rates?

Reply by CarolynCO on 4/9/05 3:18pm
Msg #30718

*I just wanted to know if he wasn't supposed to have the signed doc cop... *

Was he copying every signed page or just the notarized pages? I have had some borrowers ask about getting copies of the notarized pages and I tell them that they need to contact their LO or TC and tell them they wish to receive copies of the notarized pages for their records.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 4/9/05 8:42pm
Msg #30751

Why the NSA needs to know the docs ...

Explaining what the purpose of a document is for, is not explaining the numbers or details of the content. For example, do you tell them WHY they need to sign the W-9? Or what the 4506 is for? Or do you simply state, "this is a W-9 ... sign here ... date here"? What would you say if they asked you why they had to sign an IRS W-9 form? Would you tell them to call their LO or broker?

The "point and sign" signing agents, imo, are doing a disservice to the borrowing public. There is no one else that is going to sit with them and go through their loan package. I think a good signing agent will review the purpose of each document and highlight (point out) the critical sections. Such as the interest rate, first payment date, etc., on the note.

IMO, the good signing agent is not there just to watch them sign documents and notarize what needs to be notarized. That's why you need to know the difference between a fixed and adjustable rate loan. You also need to know what documents should constitute the loan package (within reason, of course). For example, if the note is a variable rate note, there should be a corresponding variable rate rider with a mortgage. If the note is a fixed rate, then it's not there. Also, if the TIL shows there is a prepayment penalty, and the note doesn't reflect that, then you should look for a prepayment addendum to the note, and possibly a prepayment rider to the mortgage.

If all that we had to do was sit there and tell them where to sign, witness them signing and notarize the handful of signatures that need it, then anyone can do it. Those who understand the workings of the process and can assist the borrower(s) in understanding what they are signing, without explaining the whys and wherefores of the specifics, will continue to get the "better" jobs.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 4/9/05 8:45pm
Msg #30753

Pressed the enter key to soon ...

You can explain HOW the interest changes in a variable rate loan. (It's specified right in the document, so point it out.) You CANNOT explain WHY their interest rate is XX% instead of YY%. Explaining how things work and the purpose of the documents is not offering advice. It is stating facts.

Of course, this all depends on whether or not you know the purpose of the docs and how things work. This comes from learning and experience.

Reply by CarolynCO on 4/9/05 3:12pm
Msg #30717

I do this as well. As I'm placing *their* copy on the table, I tell them about the 3 days to cancel, at which time I tell them that if they decide not to go through with the signing, they will be unable to keep *their* copy. I tell them that during the 3-days, they can do with their copy as they want -- make notes/questions to ask LO or TC. If the signing appears to be going South, I remind them again of the 3-days and also that if they chose not to finish the signing, I will have to take their copy with me. I've only had one siging that refused to sign, and that was my very first signing. Even then, they didn't argue about wanting to keep the copy.

Reply by Lalas_socal on 4/9/05 4:37pm
Msg #30722

Greetings and Aloha to all;
I have had signings where the borrower copy did not include some key documents that they wanted copies of(and should have been in the packet) so whats the harm in letting them run copies if they like?(just not the notarized pages) beware making copies on a fax machine, one lady's fax chewed that paper up and wanted to swallow it, she had to take that thing apart to get the doc out! after some pressing and smoothing it was good as new!
Next time betting the LO has all the copies in the borrowers pack!

Reply by CarolynCO on 4/10/05 10:50am
Msg #30815

I posted last week or so of the discrepancies of the packages. I always make the time before the actual signing to make sure each packet has the same docs. I never verify the docs word for word, but yesterday I did post that the RTCs were different, i.e., different dates.

Reply by Ernest_CT on 4/9/05 6:43pm
Msg #30727

Please remember, I do not claim to be an expert. I am relating my opinions only.

When you first noticed that the son had snuck a piece of paper away you should have stopped the signing cold. Period. When you lose control it is difficult to get control back.

You didn't say how old the son was. Or whether the borrower was clearly competent. I'm concerned about both, judging solely by what you've said.

As Sylvia and others do, I keep the borrower's copy in my briefcase. As part of my opening litany I tell them about their copy and that they'll get it when we've finished the signing. The reasons for keeping custody of the borrower's copy include, but are not limited to, 1) The borrower's and lender's copies cannot get mixed, leading to two copies of one document being signed and going to the lender and zero staying with the borrower. B) If the borrower makes a mistake (or spills a beverage), there's a clean copy to start over. III) Nobody is reading ahead, etc.

I take two manilla folders with me to each signing. One has the borrower's copy of the documents. It lives in my briefcase until I put my seal away, at which time the borrower's copy is given to the borrower. T'other folder has pens of the appropriate color and the lender's copy. When the litany has been completed, the journal has been signed by the borrower(s) and put back into the briefcase, and the seal has been unlimbered, then the lender's folder gets laid open in front of me with the documents face up.

My rule is very simple: I hold onto the lender's package, doling out one document at a time. If there are two (or more) borrowers, the first sheet gets signed and passed to the second signer, then the second sheet gets passed to the first signer. After the last signer has signed, the sheet goes in front on me upside down. Obviously, if only one page of the particular document needs to be signed then the rest of the pages can be read by the borrower(s) before they sign. The rule still applies: Only one document out of my hands at a time. Does it take longer?r Yes, maybe a few minutes. Will I lose control of the signing?r No.

Again, this is what works for me. You probably have developed a procedure that has worked for you, with this one exception.

Reply by Della Elswood on 4/10/05 7:14pm
Msg #30842

My signings are very similar to Ernest and have gone very smooth in this way.