Posted by kathy/ca on 8/13/05 1:18pm
Msg #58867

DOT dated the 19th, signing is the 13th. Is that a problem?

Reply by Kimberly-IN on 8/13/05 1:32pm
Msg #58870

When in doubt, ask the SS. Chances are, though, if your docs AREN'T date sensitive...you'll only have to make sure the dates on the RTC are correct. (cross out the wrong date, put in the correct date, have all parties initial) Don't follow that advise though, all companies are different and some docs are date sensitive, some aren't. That's just what I've been told to do in the past when docs weren't date sensitive.

Reply by Linda/CA on 8/13/05 2:29pm
Msg #58883

BIG PROBLEM. You can not sign the doc's before the 19th.

Reply by Kim_Cali on 8/13/05 3:32pm
Msg #58902

You cant notarize a document on the 13th that is dated the 19th....check the California notary Law on this one.

Reply by kathy/ca on 8/13/05 4:01pm
Msg #58906

I had already checked and the way I read it, the doc date...

must be for the date of, or before the date of, the signing/notarization. But I am getting conflicting replys on these boards, confused.

Reply by Kim_Cali on 8/13/05 4:48pm
Msg #58911

Re: I had already checked and the way I read it, the doc date...

If you can find an answer cut and dry like you did to this question in your CA notary Book, then NEVER rely on the info received on a message board that conflicts with the law.

Keep it as simple as you can and dont doubt yourself or what you read in that book!

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/13/05 4:57pm
Msg #58913

Re: I had already checked and the way I read it, the doc date...

Kim
I have checked the California 2005 handbook and cannot find the law you mention. Can you let me know where it is for my own reference?

The effective date of the docs will be the 19th, no matter when they are signed and notarized. Of course the date of the notarization must be the 13th as that is when the signing is taking place. I have seen docs this way before, where the effective date of the docs is several days later - usually the Wells Fargo loans where they send the docs to the borrower and have them find the notary.

Reply by Kimberly-IN on 8/13/05 5:43pm
Msg #58916

Re: I had already checked and the way I read it, the doc date...

Sorry, I read it backwards, yeah, if the DOT is dated AFTER your signing, I think that is a problem.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/13/05 5:56pm
Msg #58919

Re: I had already checked and the way I read it, the doc date...

Shouldn't be a problem at all Kimberly.
The effective date of the document can be after the date of the signing.

(And the dates on the document are part of the content of the documents and we are not responsible for the contents, just make sure there are no blank spaces, and notarize correctly, for the date they are signing in front of you)

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/13/05 9:32pm
Msg #58957

Re: I had already checked and the way I read it, the doc dat

What exactly are you referring to in the handbook? I just scrolled through it and couldn't find anything referring to document dates.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 8/13/05 9:40pm
Msg #58959

Me neither Cali...

and I spent about 30 mins this afternoon re-reading both the handbook and government codes to support my statement earlier.

I do know by working with atty's and generally accepted practices/common knowledge that notaries are absolutely not to interpret docs or practice law; which Sylvia said earlier. It's annoying me tho - I know I'm right, just can't find a code to support it (it's pissing me off, actually).

Reply by Linda/CA on 8/13/05 6:00pm
Msg #58921

The signing of the dated doc's of the 19th., has to take place on the 19th or after. You can not sign or notarize before the 19th. If your appt. is on the 13th it is incorrect. You will have to wait until the 19th the date that the documents are dated or later.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 8/13/05 7:11pm
Msg #58931

Your black and white statement here could not be more WRONG

Sylvia/FL is right, the notary is never responsible for the contents of the documents INCLUDING the date.

Who or what says ***you can not sign or notarize before the 19th***???

***If your appt. is on the 13th it is incorrect*** Please call the lender and tell them they don't know what they are doing - I'd love to listen in on that conversation.

***You will have to wait*** Again, I sure won't be calling the SS that hired me or the escrow that hired me and tell them ***you will have to wait***. Not unless I wanted to never, ever be called back for a job in the future, or be accused of interpreting the documents.

If docs are date-sensitive, you will be aware of it by instructions from the SS or escrow.

Reply by MarleneM/USNA on 8/15/05 10:53am
Msg #59121

And your statement could not be more WRONG!

USNA tells notaries in every state that they must not notarize documents that do not LEGALLY exist at the time of the signing.

Problems may arise between the date you notarized it and the stated date of the document. How do you explain to a court of law in a property dispute, for example, that you notarized a document that didn’t legally exist at the time?

Please, think about it!

Reply by PAW_Fl on 8/15/05 11:58am
Msg #59139

Re: And your statement could not be more WRONG!

If someone hands you a piece of paper, it exists. There is no two ways about it. If the document has an effective date of some time in the future, who are we to question it? As long as the signers sign the document and appear before us TODAY and we notarize that signature TODAY and our certificate reflects that the signer appeared before us TODAY, impo, then the document existed TODAY. It is immaterial as to what the effective date is.

Now, if the document states a preparation date or an execution date that is in the future, there may be a problem. But, again, it is not within the purview of the Notary Public to ascertain and validate the contents of the document. That is up to the signer. We don't notarize the document. We are not accountable if the document "doesn't LEGALLY exist" (whatever that means). We notarize the signer's signature.

--- How do you explain to a court of law in a property dispute, for example, that you notarized a document that didn’t legally exist at the time? ---

Easy. You were presented with a document that needed to have the signatures notarized. You followed the established procedures, policies, principals and statutes and notarized the signature as requested. End of story for the notary. We are not responsible for content. We cannot make a judgment whether or not a document is legal or not unless we have first hand knowledge. Otherwise, the notary may be guilty of UPL.

Nowhere in the Florida statutes can I find a definition or even a reference to when a document legally exists. Further, there is nothing that I can find in the Florida statutes or Notary Reference Manual, about checking document dates. The only date the notary is responsible for is the date of the notarial act.

<< insert standard "I'm not an attorney" disclaimer here >>

Reply by TitleGalCA on 8/15/05 1:04pm
Msg #59156

Re: And your statement could not be more WRONG!

As always PAW, perfectly set out answer.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 8/15/05 1:43pm
Msg #59161

Thank you, TitleGal (n/m)

Reply by TitleGalCA on 8/15/05 1:09pm
Msg #59157

Is that right....

The poster that my response was intended for stated that the signer WOULD HAVE TO WAIT TO SIGN UNTIL THE DOC DATE CAUGHT UP TO THE CURRENT DATE. You're out of your mind if you think that's correct.

***USNA tells notaries in every state that they must not notarize....*** Who is the USNA? The Navy? And, who died and made them the rule giver? I have never heard of them and I've been a notary since 1997, and a signing agent for the last year.

See Paw's answer on how "It is explained". It's quite explainable, as he so perfectly points out.

I never once said it made "dated" sense - quite the opposite - nevertheless, it is NOT UP TO THE NOTARY AS TO DOCUMENT CONTENTS INCLUDING THE DATE!

Reply by MarleneM/USNA on 8/17/05 10:05am
Msg #59607

Re: Is that right....Yep

I have posted USNA information at the end of this message if you are interested in finding out more about us. We are a new national notary organization (3 years old). Before we tell notaries anything, we run it by our attorney.

I apologize for not making it more clear that it was advice for notaries I was posting, not dictates.

But we still say, don't notaries should not notarize post-dated documents. The same common sense applies as when banks don't accept post-dated checks - the money's not there, the content's not there, the legal standing isn't there for the document, it doesn't matter that the piece of paper is there with words on it.

You may do what you want as a signing agent, but as a notary, you may be liable in this situation. Why risk it?

Marlene M.
United States Notary Association
www.enotary.org
[e-mail address]

Reply by Denise, CA on 8/13/05 7:08pm
Msg #58929

Kathy, I have had a notary in a signing (say for instance on the 19th) call me and say the date on page one of the DOT is the 20th. I find it hard to understand how a lender can print docs on the 19th with a date of the 20th since all those dates are internal within their system. In any case, the bottom line would be, how could you sign docs on the 19th that weren't printed until the 20th. You would need to wait until the date on page one of the DOT or after that date to sign those docs.

Reply by Kimberly-IN on 8/13/05 8:59pm
Msg #58942

Titlegal is right though regarding questioning the docs...lenders/TC/SS don't like that....I guess get signed what they send you....if it's wrong, hopefully they'll call you to do a second trip with the correct set of docs, two signings, two fees!!

Reply by TitleGalCA on 8/13/05 9:05pm
Msg #58945

Re: DOT dated the 19th, signing is the 13th. Kimberly...

I have been in all sorts of situations with lenders, and truly, the bottom line is they dictate.

I know it doesn't make logical sense about docs being dated after the signing date (eg. how can the ack date be before the dated date?) but the truth of the matter is if it works for them for various and sundry reasons it's not up to us to second guess them or interpret what they are doing.

Reply by Denise, CA on 8/13/05 9:24pm
Msg #58954

Re: DOT dated the 19th, signing is the 13th. Kimberly...

In my Signing Service business we have had a "few" sets of docs where the internal (print) date if a day ahead (predated). My notaries generally check page one, paragraph one of the DOT to obtain the print date for the journal. A couple of times it didn't click with the notary that there might be a problem, and each time we had to go back and resign the docs printed with correct and current dates, not a date that has not even happened yet. Go figga!!

Reply by TitleGalCA on 8/13/05 9:34pm
Msg #58958

Re: DOT dated the 19th, signing is the 13th - Denise

No kiddin - "go figga!"

For me, I am ALWAYS on the losing end if I try to second guess what lenders intentions are, and after all these years - concede that it's their game.

As long as the requirements of the signing don't conflict with CA notary requirements, I'm good. The minute they do - I'm protecting my commission.

Until then, lender is the name of this game and I'm not arguing as they are ultimately signing my paycheck (both...in my day job and as NSA).

Reply by kathy/ca on 8/13/05 11:06pm
Msg #58978

I got a hold of the SS that hired me and they said to change

the date on the DOT to the 13th and have the borrower initial the change, BUT, will it still record and did the person telling me that know what they are talking about. I dont care if they are right or wrong I will do what the ask, except if it puts my commission in jeopardy. So many conflicting replys here, just need reassurance I am not doing anything illegal.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/13/05 11:15pm
Msg #58979

Re: I got a hold of the SS that hired me and they said to change

Kathy
Before you do something that may be a problem. If you have any doubts at all call the lender or title company! Signing services do not always know the correct answer.
Who was the SS?

Reply by kathy/ca on 8/14/05 12:20am
Msg #58985

Signing is scheduled for Sunday, and the SS is ESS/Escrow..

Signing Service. Dont know what to do.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 8/13/05 11:20pm
Msg #58980

Re: I got a hold of the SS that hired me and they said to change

Kathy,

If the SS instructed you, then you can only do what the person WHO HIRES YOU wants you to do, unless it is against what notary procedure is for California. You need to be very sure of what you can and can't do as a notary in California.

Whether or not it records is not your issue - and no recorder that I have ever dealt with cares about dates on acknowledgements vs. the dated dates of documents.

None of this (that you describe) puts your commission in jeopardy, nor do I see that you are doing anything illegal as you are NOT backdating!

I'm feeling bad for you as there is some really BAD mis-information here. As an NSA and a title company employee, it's irritating the crap out of me, frankly.

I can't advise you other than as a notary of 8 years in CA, and as a TO of a well-known title company as to the documents recordability.

At some point in time, you need to be sure of your own commission as a notary... and have some comfort as a signing agent.

Best of luck to you. Know that you ARE THE NOTARY, and as long as nobody asks you to do something that the SOS has warned you against, feel secure.

Reply by Renee_MI on 8/14/05 4:23am
Msg #58987

Re:possible reason

While I agree with all the suggestions to inquire w/ lender as to whether or not the dating was their intention - the first thing that came to my mind was the possibility that it could be a split signing, with you doing the first signer and the docs then needing to be sent to 2nd signer. The dates would be just about a long enough time span to cover that need - and the lender would want them dated for the 2nd signer, to ensure their RTC compliance. Some lenders will not allow for these 'split signings' to have a signer execute AFTER the doc date, so docs get dated ahead, to cover the time needed.

Or, of course, could just be a simple error, and phrased that way, the lender would appreciate the 'head's up'. Just IMHO

Reply by JanetK/CA on 8/15/05 2:24am
Msg #59097

Re: I got a hold of the SS that hired me and they said to change

I completely agree with you. I'm not aware of any notary law that addresses this issue -- and if someone knows of something I've missed, please let us know the code # so we can stand corrected.

I've seen a great deal of misinformation given on this board, usually with absolute certainty. Anyone new really does need to be very careful of who they listen to here!! (Actually this isn't just true for new people!) I imagine this fact was behind the post from Brenda a while back where she listed the board names of people she pays attention to. (I just recently read that post, but unfortunately don't have the msg #.) I agree with her assessments. Reading that post should help eliminate any confusion about this issue...