Posted by Anonymous on 8/7/05 10:33am
Msg #57465
Right to cancel question?
I was told recently that not only do the borrowers have to sign the right to cancel that is in the package going back to the lender, but that they also had to sign the right to cancel docs in their package.
Does anyone know the right answer to this question, as I have been having the borrowers sign only the one(s) that are in the package going back to the title co?
| Reply by Kimberly-IN on 8/7/05 10:35am
Msg #57466
The borrowers should sign their copy, two per borrower.
| Reply by BrendaTX on 8/7/05 10:50am
Msg #57468
THIS IS OPINION ONLY, NOT PRACTICING LAW, ETC...HERE'S HOW I DO IT...NOT SAYING IT IS RIGHT, BUT HERE IS THE THEORY I HAVE COME UP WITH TO KEEP MYSELF IN GOOD SHAPE WITH RTC REQUIREMENTS:
Start out with an original and three copies of all RTCs.
Return signed original to TC - copies should be signed also. Why?
Because on the RTC - doesn't it say something like: "By my signature below, I acknowledge receipt of two SIGNED copies of this document." ?
"Signed" is the operative word.
If both parties sign the same RTC:
The husband is supposed to get two copies of the RTC with his signature and the wife's on it.
The wife is supposed to get two copies of the RTC with her signature and the husband's on it.
If there are separate RTCs--
Leave the husband one of hers and two of his.
Leave the wife one of his and two of hers.
That should cover you.
The form usually says something like: Any party to this transaction can cancel this loan by doing _______.
CLEAR AS MUD?
Thinking it through--if trying to remember all of this and getting confused:
If a party wants to cancel, once they send off the RTC to do so, they should still have a set of RTC docs with both signatures (whether separate or combined signatures on the RTC) left for their files. Leave them enough combinations of signed copies in possession so that can ultimately occur.
| Reply by BrendaTX on 8/7/05 10:54am
Msg #57469
Re: Right to cancel question? ...correction...
Of course, if there is one Party...that's different. Adjust accordingly.
| Reply by Sandi on 8/7/05 11:58am
Msg #57478
The "Right" Answer
*I was told recently that not only do the borrowers have to sign the right to cancel that is in the package going back to the lender, but that they also had to sign the right to cancel docs in their package.
Does anyone know the right answer to this question, as I have been having the borrowers sign only the one(s) that are in the package going back to the title co?*
I don't know if there IS a "right" answer ... personally, I've never encountered an RTC which instructed that borrowers sign their copies -or- which bore language to the effect they were acknowledging receiving a copy of two signed copies. Recently, I came across one which said they were acknowledge copies of "two completely filled out" copies -- which would include their signatures.
I personally like to make sure that the package has at least 2 copies for each borrower -- sometimes, there is no way to ensure this happens (as in when the Lender forwards package direct to the Borrowers .... I have RARELY seen escrow assistants tend to that detail, as they are usually 'under the gun' (and maybe no one told them??)
My personal belief **this is not legal advice** as to WHY the borrowers must sign is that it's CYA language (on the TC or Lender's behalf) so the borrower cannot come back and say "the notary never explained that to me," or "I never knew I had only three days to cancel," etc.
Perhaps you also already knew that EITHER one of the Borrowers can cancel without knowledge/permission of the other??? (Only lately have I seen just ONE RTC which bore that language.)
| Reply by Sandi on 8/7/05 12:00pm
Msg #57479
ooops -- BrendaTX already said some of that... sorry n/m
| Reply by Magic Lady CA on 8/7/05 1:07pm
Msg #57484
Re: ooops -- BrendaTX already said some of that... sorry n/m
If the RTC is in both names, they each sign one for the lender and two that they keep. If there is a RTC for each borrower to sign, they each sign their own RTC for the lender and two that they keep.
The reasoning for this, should they want to cancel, they have a signed copy to send back and a signed copy to keep for their records.
I remind all my borrowers that either of them can independently cancel the transaction.
| Reply by NY Notary on 8/7/05 6:18pm
Msg #57494
In many cases the package includes 3 copies for each borrower. 1 For the lender the 2 for the borrower. If the lender states to return one copy per borrower, I have them sign three and give two to the borrower. In some cases the lender appears (note I said appears) to want to duplicate the package. So if there are three in the borrowers package copy, I send back three signed (more better than less). In that case I never go into the borrower's package to have them sign a copy of anything. In the case of rescission, the lender could always prove that the borrower saw the RTC. That is the point of signing, isn't it?
I am sure others will disagree, but it's all about what if, isn't it? I think we make ourselves crazy sometimes.
| Reply by Nd_WA on 8/7/05 7:47pm
Msg #57502
IMO...This is a high stake business (I would and try not leave a trail for something that may come back to haunt me) . When things don't go right, who knows what people will do to get their way.
I do not leave (unsigned) extra copies of RTC in borrowers' package. I'd have them sign (initial if need be) all original RTCs then give them what is required.
From one of my signing:
Mr. B: Why do we need 4 copies?
Me: Gov't required each signer gets 2 copies.
Mr. B: Can't we just take only 2 if both of us signed on the same page.
Me: No sir, because should you and Mrs. B's relationship went sour after I walked out that door, and either you or Mrs. B ran off with the only 2 copies leaving the other no chance to cancel.... So be nice to each other the next three days now (sarcastically said).
-Mr. & Mrs B looked at each other and go hmmmmmmmmm!!!
| Reply by NY Notary on 8/8/05 1:56pm
Msg #57614
What are you talking about? I haver no idea.
| Reply by Bob-Chicago on 8/8/05 12:10am
Msg #57515
I agree w/ NY ( but Go White Sox)
No harm in having bwr sign ther copies, but , to my mind, no need either, unless lender requires, (eg. Ditech)
The sig line of RTC, says , "I acknowledge receipt of two copies, etc" They would have a dificult time proving that they did not, in fact, each receive the two copies. I don't see where bwr's sig on RTC copy does anything to prove that they recd them. If they are going to lie about getting copies, they sure are no going to exhibit a copy, signed or un-signed.
Some lenders require only that bwr initials orignal and some don't require that the bwr do anything with the docs. To my mind this is not a good practice, but , hey, it ain't my money.
I do make sure that their copies have correct dates filled in and that they do in fact have two copies each, if I receive or print docs.
If there is a TIL, they are also required to recieve a copy of that. The recept of the TIL and 2 coies of the RTC, triggers the commencement or the three dys of the right to cancel.
| Reply by PAW_Fl on 8/8/05 7:48am
Msg #57525
Re: I agree w/ Bob-IL ( but change your SOX-Go Red Sox)
Depending on the wording on the RTC, is the the key whether or not I ask the borrowers to sign their copies. In most cases, they are simply signing a receipt stating that they each received two copies of the RTC and a copy of the TIL. However, there are some notices that specifically state "fully executed", "signed" or "completely filled in" (or words to that effect). In those cases, I do request the borrowers sign their copies before putting them in the "borrowers package".
If any of the dates on the notice are changed, they need to be initialed by the borrower(s). In this case, I also have the borrower(s) initial their copies as a safeguard.
Just as a point of reference, there is nothing in Title 12 (excerpt printed below) that requires the notice to be acknowledged by the borrowers (signed or initialed), only that two copies be provided.
12CFR226.15
(b) Notice of right to rescind. In any transaction or occurrence subject to rescission, a creditor shall deliver two copies of the notice of the right to rescind to each consumer entitled to rescind (one copy to each if the notice is delivered by electronic communication as provided in Sec. 226.36(b)). The notice shall identify the transaction or occurrence and clearly and conspicuously disclose the following:
(1) The retention or acquisition of a security interest in the consumer's principal dwelling.
(2) The consumer's right to rescind, as described in paragraph (a)(1) of this section.
(3) How to exercise the right to rescind, with a form for that purpose, designating the address of the creditor's place of business.
(4) The effects of rescission, as described in paragraph (d) of this section.
(5) The date the rescission period expires.
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