Posted by Lisa Bittner on 8/21/05 7:21pm
Msg #60632

non signing print fee

I have been a signing agent for quite some time, prior to my having an ss. In all these years no one, either title, escrow, broker or ss has ever paid me for printing doc yet never leaving my house for a signing due to cancellation

Now this has come full circle and a notary I found to do a signing printed docs and the loan then canceled prior to leaving her home or office. The notary-signing agent wants $50.00 for this service.
1. I understand the frustration and do not want anyone working with me to be frustrated.
2. As a company, we do not get paid anything from the Broker for this service. I have never received this kind of compensation.

I feel $50.00 is a bit high, I would like to open a dialogue with you and get some thoughts on this matter, and I want to be fare in setting up this as standard policy with SoCal Signing Co.
Yet, I know everyone wants the fee, but should there be one?

any thoughts?

Reply by Kim_Cali on 8/21/05 7:26pm
Msg #60633

My feeling is that the charge for edocs (ie $25 or $35 or whatever you charge) should be the max in fairness to both parties. I know the cost of business debate can get heated....so it will be interesting to see other people's point of view!

Reply by PWcalifornia on 8/21/05 7:39pm
Msg #60635

I recently agreed to do a last minute signing, so I was rushed to print over 300 docs and make borrowers copies to meet with borrower when he got off work. Borrower calls me before I leave to say forget it because he talked with the loan officer, and the interest rate and variable rate was not what he agreed on. In this case I charged $50.00 for all the printing rushing etc. This could have been avoided if the broker had been honest, so personally I think the signing service should charge broker. I also learned a lesson no more last minute favors.

Reply by Dmartz_IN on 8/21/05 7:31pm
Msg #60634

My policy is if signing cancels at least 2 hrs before appointment (NO Charge)
If i have printed out docs you will owe a print fee.
If signing cancels less than 2hrs you owe me $25 as i have probably turned signings down to do yours so i lost money. Its just busniess nothing personal.

Reply by Anon on 8/21/05 7:47pm
Msg #60637

I too was a Notary Signing Agent for three years priot to opening my nationwidesigning service. I have been paid as a NSA for cancellations, and I have been paid for document printing.

Changes occur, cancellations happen. When I send a confirmation to a notary for a signing, I have contracted with that notary to provide a certain service for a certain fee at a certain time, and I expect that notary to keep that appointment, thus the notary is obligated to turn down other appointments for that date and time to provide service for my company. I have had several cases where the notary has had to print documents, and the loan cancelled. I was not paid by anyone for the work; however, that has absolutely nothing to do with the arrangement between my ss and a nsa.

I pay the nsa $25.00 for the printjob & $25.00 for the cancellation and chalk it up to the cost of doing business. The nsa is in some small way compensated for the effort and commitment, good terms continue between us, and I further the good reputation I have fostered among notary signing agents.

I have since learned to have an agreement with those who contract with my service a price for that last minute cancellation, and the ones who know me and know I provide the more qualified notary signing agents have adopted my attitude, "It;s the cost of doing business."

From one ss to another, my advice is for you to take it with the proverbial grain of salt, pay the nsa with whom you contracted and move on to the next signing. My belief is simple. Take care of the people with whom you do business, and they will take care of you.

Reply by Kandi on 8/22/05 9:20am
Msg #60719

Who are you? InkWerks, Sylvia, Lisa and I all identified ourselves. I don't think you have anything to fear here if you are honestly trying to establish a dialogue with our SA's.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/22/05 10:11am
Msg #60745

Kandi

Inkwerk has been around a long time - at least on the GMN board.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/21/05 7:49pm
Msg #60638

Lisa
My print fee is $45 and if I have printed out docs and the signing is then canceled, I expect to get paid the print fee - and I have always got it.

Reply by Hampton/CA on 8/21/05 7:49pm
Msg #60639

" As a company, we do not get paid anything from the Broker for this service. "

Bear in mind, that your SA's are not working for the lender or Title. They are working for you. So whether you get paid or not is irrevelent. What is revelent is how you set up your business practices.

$50 is a typical edoc fee to Title. $25 is typical for an SS. I would think that $25 would be fair, but it is up to you to set your policy, and up to you as to when you'll bend. Sometimes the circumstances of a canceled signing may affect your decision. Each situation is different and each SA is different. For an SA using Kinkos, printing out docs is more expensive than for an SA using a high-end laser printer.

Reply by LISA BITTNER on 8/21/05 10:10pm
Msg #60669

I really appreciate this input. This is very valuable

Our reputation is important, We have always paid more for signings than most, so that the SA's will take the last mins signings when they do come rolling in, knowing I will cover cost and pay early as possible. I also realize every state and every experience is different, so I want to be fair

Hampton, I understand that the SA's are working for me, (not the lender or title) its relavent is Industry Standards. SoCal Signings wants to be on the High End of Industry Standards to assure the very best SA's will want to work with us.

What I have decided to do is use my local office max charge for printing docs per page.... it is higher than the average SA cost... this sounded the most fair.

Thank you again for your continued input

Lisa B

Reply by Lee/AR on 8/21/05 11:15pm
Msg #60680

Whoa! You have more to think about...& so do SA's

Your business practices & policies are decided by you, the business owner.
This is also quite true of the Signing Agents--who are, after all, Independent Contractors and, as such, they decide what their charges & fees are--you do not decide what you are going to pay them. This is called negotiation.
Your only decision is whether or not you wish to 'hire' them. I always quote $$ + $ for edocs... so you know what my fee/charges are---and I would be most displeased to discover that you feel you can change this to suit your problems and circumstances.

The usual example is a plumber: Do you honestly believe that you can hire him and expect him to allow you to decide what he charges and how much you're going to pay for that new faucet? Of course not! So why do you think you can 'decide' what to pay a SA in print fees?

As Hampton (I think) pointed out... the 'cost of doing business' varies by equipment... equipment the SA has to purchase, maintain, buy supplies for and replace. Paying for the printing of docs is YOUR cost of doing business.

Reply by Anon on 8/22/05 10:09am
Msg #60742

Re: Whoa! You have more to think about...Not Really!

I have to disagree with you! Your choice is whether or not you want to work under the conditions with which I am willing to contract. When I do need a plumber, I have a clear understanding of the fees he charges. If I do not like what I hear, I move on to someone else. I control, as the consumer, what I am willing to pay. I am not telling the plumber what to charge. You are more than welcome to decline a signing, but I will decide what I am willing to pay. I also believe I have among the highest cancellation fee schedules available. I think I am the one who pointed out "the cost of doing business."

Your perceived attack strikes a nerve with me here considering the other ss was thinking seriously of paying nothing.

As for the costs a SA incurs, be reasonable. I do know what paper, toner, telephone, and the ever increasing cost of gasoline is. I am also aware of time. Being in business, I deal wih these figures all day long. The fact is no gasoline is used. Your phone is a tool of your trade, and the cost of my toner and paper comes to about $0.015 per sheet. Total cost comes to about $4.50 for 300 sheets of paper. Chances are you did not print that much through my company, but I am thinking what some of these other campanies do. Total time to print is about 15 minutes.

The average hourly wage of a laboror in the U. S. is about $8.73 per hour. Minimum wage is below that. Most servers in restaurants work for an average wage of $2.15 per hour plus tips (tips have to be split with the bus staff who make the minimum wage).

Taking all of the above into consideration, my payment of $50.00 for your 15 minutes of time and your $4.50 of materials for never leaving your home or office to do anything and giving you enough time to accept another signing at your full fee is more than fair.

By the way, plumbers do not make $200.00 per hour (multiplying the cancellation fee by 4 for the full hour).

I wish you the best with whomsoever you are willing to contract.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 8/22/05 11:05am
Msg #60768

Re: Whoa! You have more to think about...Not Really!

As far as the cost for printing goes it takes more than 15 minutes to print out 300 pages. 300 pages on a printer that prints 11 pages a minute is still going to take 27 minutes. Then there's time spent filling the printer with paper, refilling toner if needed, doing a quick preview making sure the notorial wording is correct, clipping together and getting it in an envelope. Not that those are big deals but it does take more than 15 minutes to do. So your time calculation is off. Also you didn't even consider the deprectiation and eventual replacement of the laser printer which is a greater cost to the small business than the multimillion dollar office supply business. Oh and what about profit... yes "profit". I am not a laboror, or a waitress. I didn't get into this to strive to make minimum wage or just above. I think $25 for up to 220 total pages is more than reasonable as is a $50 cancellation (25 print, 25 cancellation). I just think that your estimated cost of printing for the small business is underestimated.

Reply by Anon on 8/22/05 11:41am
Msg #60777

Re: Whoa! You have more to think about...Not Really!

I think your cost is over estimated. Time spent filling the printer with paper? Just how long does that take you? Changing the toner? How long does that take you? Time clipping papers together? Making certain notarial wording is correct? Don't you keep short forms with you at all times? How often do you have to replace your laser printer? I still use a Xerox Workcentre XD 100, which I purchased seven years ago for $599.00 plus tax, and it prints at 21 pages per minutes. Profit? Are you not making a profit by now? Is $50.00 (even at 11 pages per minute for maybe 27.5 minutes, and that's if you have 300 pages) for going nowhere not profitable? As for depreciation, that you take care of with your taxes, not the signing company. As for all your tools, that's what every business owner must have (small or otherwise) to do business, and no one ss should have to be charged for it. That's what you do with your fees with the various people for whom you sign...spread it out. These are your costs of doing business.

Having worked as a laborer and a server and knowing the physical wherewithal they have to endure in addition to their superiors and customers attitudes for the money they make; I am pointing out that you, as Signing Agent, are well compensated for checking ID, checking notarial wording, signing a name, and stamping a paper.

I'm sorry to hear your printer is not one of the faster ones, but even when I worked as a SA, I never had a printer that printed less than 18 pages per minute. Of course that was about a year ago, and the average package was about 80 pages (160) total, thus there was less than 10 minutes.

Just because someone threw caution to the wind and risked opening a company does not make that person or that person's company a multi-million dollar organisation.

I have seen, I am surprised, a few negative posts to what I have written. I have not seen one thank you for paying out of my pocket when the SA had to do virtually nothing. Fifity dollars, I think, is more than reasonable.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 8/22/05 2:00pm
Msg #60810

Re: Whoa! You have more to think about...Not Really!

The point is all of the little things associated in printing take time. When you add the few things that take a couple of minutes to do it does add up. Certainly it doesn't take all day. But your estimate minimalized printing and prep time to much less than what it is. It's more than just click on the icon and your done. That was my only disagreement. And not one that really deserves all the long posted debating oops did I do that, nope not me... lol

Reply by CarolynCO on 8/22/05 2:28pm
Msg #60824

Re: If Anon wants to stay anonymous, why keep replying?

Reply by taxpro on 8/22/05 3:20pm
Msg #60842

The true cost

Anon said, "I am pointing out that you, as Signing Agent, are well compensated for checking ID, checking notarial wording, signing a name, and stamping a paper."..and..."I have not seen one thank you for paying out of my pocket when the SA had to do virtually nothing."

Saying the SA just checks ID, checks notarial wording, signs a name, and stamps a paper, or does virtually nothing, is like saying , "A signing service does virtually nothing!!! They just pick up the phone and call a notary. They make most of the money while we do all the work!"

Yes, of course, I know that's not true, but do you get the point? How can you belittle what notaries do and make it sound like it's nothing? If you own a business, you know there are other costs involved. The most important cost, in my opinion, is the loss of other signing appointments because I made a commitment to do your signing. When someone else calls with another signing for the same time, I don't take their signing because I made a commitment to you. I made a promise. And I stand by my word. I can't tell you how many times I've turned down a $225 signing, close to home, because I had already commited to doing a $125 signing, 50 miles away! No matter how much I could have made, the point is that when you have "taken" that time slot off my schedule, and then you cancel at the last minute without paying me, you have cost me anywhere from $100 to $250, never mind the time it took to print the edocs, toner and paper. If notaries and signing companies don't have any respect for each other, how can they work together? I don't know if you're the same person who asked the original question, since it's a different name, but you should seriously rethink your attitude.

Reply by Linda Rowley on 8/22/05 5:55pm
Msg #60882

Re: The true cost

I'm new to this forum but Commitment is so important in my book and I agree with you taxpro as we establish our businesses even if we have to take a few dollars out of our own pocket it is tax deductable and heaven only knows I need a tax shelter. It's better to keep people happy than lose the business. It's a proven fact that if you have an unhappy customer and you don't make it right in some way you will lose 15 people in the sweep of someone bad mouthing you in your business my mother always told me be a person of your word and if a job is worth doing do it well. People who give a 150% in life don't have to advertise as the companies can trust them to do what they say. You do a shoddy job or don't show up for an appointment you won't get called again from out of state to do a signing. My oppion free of charge today. As you can tell I'm very vocal. Thanx Lisa for turning me on to this site. LINDA

Reply by Anon on 8/22/05 8:29pm
Msg #60915

Re: The true cost...Over Exaggerated

Did you read the entire thread? This started simply because I said I compensated notaries for cancellations. It never ceases to amaze me to find notaries like you who make over exagerated comments and demand money from companies simply because you are under the impression that anyone in business must be rich.

How dare anyone have that attitude!?

Tell me something. Have you examined my books? Don't you dare categorize me with other companies who scam notaries! 67% of my fees go to the notaries while the rest is used to pay salaries to my employees, insurance benefits, rent, phones, cpa, attorney, office supplies, etc. I for one am certainly not getting rich off this business. I started it because notaries on these message boards complained about disreputable companies, and I knew I could do better! But good God, look at the nasty comments and pompous opinions I receive from people like you who think they know everything about this business! You attack one of the few companies who does not stiff the notaries and pays them very well!

The furthest any notary has traveled for a job I assigned is 18 miles. Most of the notaries I assign travel under five miles. Why? Because I used to be a SA and understand the costs involved, i work more considerately than most! Do you realize what happens when you assume?

I have never grouped notaries the way some of the posters on this board, yourself included, have grouped signing services.

Last weekend, I had not one, but two notaries in different areas foul up so badly that not only did I have to comp the title company for the signings, hire two other notaries and pay them my same high standard fee out of my pocket, but I ended up losing the account too! I wonder how you would react to losing a a major account! And before you even think of making a smartalec answer, don't! One notary was so late and so incompetent, even though she came across as professional and interviewed well, insulted the borrower to the point where the borrower did not want her in the house. The other notary, who also interviewed well, went to the signing without the documents! Does this mean that all notaries are incompetent? Have I even made inuendo to insult toward notary signing agents?

By the way, please tell me who is paying $225.00 per signing. If there is a company out there doing it, then I want to close shop and go back to being a SA.

Next time read the entire thread before you make comments such as the ones you made, and please, at least make your numbers believable! If you have read the entire thread, then you need to work on comprehension skills!

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/22/05 4:59pm
Msg #60866

Re: Whoa! You have more to think about...Not Really!

I can usually print a loan package out in well under 30 minutes. BUT I had one the other day, and it was a piggy back. They were sent in pdf format, but they were obviously scanned as images as it took over 1.1/2 hours to print the package out including borrowers copies.
Never has taken that long before.

Reply by Anon on 8/22/05 8:39pm
Msg #60920

Re: Whoa! You have more to think about...Not Really!

Personally, I think some of these companies have become ridiculous with the number of pages they are demanding the Signing Agents print. If I were still working as a signing agent, I would ask the number of pages in the documents first and base my fee on their answers. Anything more than 160 pages (including the borrowers' set) is an extra print charge. Why? Up to about a year ago, the average package was 75 pages. In the last 9 months or so, it has sored to an unbelievable number of pages.

Any notary who is expected to print more than 160 pages total should be demanding an additional print fee, especially if it takes a ridiculous amount of time to print those documents.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/21/05 11:52pm
Msg #60687

Re: non signing print fee - Lisa

Just for curiosity, what is your local office max charge for printing per page?

Reply by Lisa Bittner on 8/22/05 10:58am
Msg #60766

Re: non signing print fee - Lisa

I will pay $25.00 for the edocs charge.

My office max pays .04 a page for printing legal size

Reply by Lee/AR on 8/22/05 12:15pm
Msg #60795

The ONLY place around here charges 15 cents/page-legal

My point is the costs and expenses do vary by area---and a lot of other factors not included in this discussion; nor, apparently, in your thinking.
And, ma'm, I did say: Your only decision is whether or not you wish to 'hire' them. ('them' being the SA at the fee s/he quoted.) The reverse is, of course, also true--whether the SA wants to take the job at what you're willing to pay---guess it depends on the point of view--SS or SA.
Fact is, we are all (SS & SA) Independent Contractors and have to do our homework to figure costs, expenses and profit. A 'failure rate' is something you need to factor into your contract with a title co.
FWIW: I have ALWAYS been paid the print fee on cancellations--whatever the reason.

Reply by Lisa Bittner on 8/22/05 3:15pm
Msg #60840

Re: The ONLY place around here charges 15 cents/page-legal

I thank everyone for the input on this issue. There are lots of expectations out there of what should be paid and everyone has their own right to set policy.

Being a signing agent is a popular thing, and in California there are many many of us... so it is getting very competitive out there... if we expect too much we could sit and wait for signings...
if we bend we may get more work.

The delicate balance of making SS or others to respect our time, yet be willing to let some things go is something every one of us has to decide. I have some Signing Agents who do not charge for the print fee and say to me, as long as they get the next round of signings in there area they will forgo the print charge. Others want a fee for time and material. Both SA are correct and within their own right to ask for a fee.

Yet it is up to me to set this standard and policy for my SS and not to expect others to agree.
As long as I make this clear prior to the accepting of the assignment then it is fine.

I certainly enjoy the debate, and if some want to be anonymous that is just fine.. its the content not the name.

Lisa

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/22/05 4:50pm
Msg #60859

Re: non signing print fee - Lisa

If Office Max charges 4 cents a page, then a 100 page package would be $40! Then you have the copies for the borrower, so that would make it $80 for a 100 page loan.

I charge $45 for printing edocs, if the loan is canceled before I go out to the signing but after docs are printed, then I invoice the $45 and always get it. If a company refused to pay me for the printing, then I would no longer accept work from that company, and would let them know that they have a bad debt with me when they call.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 8/22/05 4:57pm
Msg #60864

Re: non signing print fee - Lisa

100 pages @ 4¢ a page is $4.00 not $40.00.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/22/05 5:03pm
Msg #60867

Re: non signing print fee - Paul

that will teach me to do calculations when I am full of drugs!

Reply by TitleGalCA on 8/22/05 10:56pm
Msg #60952

Re: non signing print fee - Sylvia TUI

Sylvia, that's "typing under the influence" Is that legal in Florida?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/23/05 7:05am
Msg #60987

Re: non signing print fee - Sylvia TUI

I can't find anything in the statutes about it
Guess I am safe LOL

Reply by InkWerk/CA on 8/22/05 12:36am
Msg #60689

From your competition...with love

"Bear in mind, that your SA's are not working for the lender or Title. They are working for you. So whether you get paid or not is irrevelent. What is revelent is how you set up your business practices."

From a signing service point of view, I couldn't have said it any better.

If you want to succeed at being a signing company, you must learn how NOT to pass the buck and learn how to negotiate with and for your clients and contractors. If you are negotiating bad deals with your clients dont expect the contractor absorb the cost just as the title company shouldn't absorb the cost of a bad deal with your contractor. I'm sure you know by now that owning a signing company is much more than picking up the phone to call notaries.

With that said, there are too many circumstances that would dictate how I would handle the situation. Paying the notary a printing fee is definitely not out of line and is something we do regularly.

Reply by CarolynCO on 8/22/05 8:37am
Msg #60703

*In all these years no one, either title, escrow, broker or ss has ever paid me for printing doc yet never leaving my house for a signing due to cancellation*

Did you ever ask for a printing charge, or could you have possibly never been paid because you never asked? Additionally, if you never got paid for never leaving your house due to a cancellation, did you ever ask for a cancellation fee? If I print and copy the loan package, I expect a *printing fee.* If a loan cancels for whatever reason less than two hours before the scheduled signing, whether I have left my driveway or not, I expect a *cancellation fee* to compensate for signings I have turned down because of my signing commitment with the SS, TC and LO. As as been said before *it's just part of doing business.*

Reply by Kandi on 8/22/05 9:11am
Msg #60716

Lisa, I, like you, signed loans for many years before owning a SS, so I, too, see both sides of the story. Every business has things they don't get paid for,(consider the people who give free estimates. I recently had a new roof put on, and got 4 estimates. Every one of the three that didn't get the job spent their time, about 45 minutes to 1 hour measuring and figuring, not to mention driving time and gas) and SS's and SA's are no different. You are absolutely right when you say we don't get paid for cancellations. No matter how last minute. Cancellation fees are not the norm. Neither is printing fees.

That having been said, I do pay a small printing fee. $25 for one and $35 for two. It may not cover the complete cost of time and materials, but it is 100 percent out of my pocket on a deal that I have made nothing on, so I feel it is the most fair compromise. The SA is maybe not getting as much as they feel they should get, but it is better than nothing. It gets to be a real tightrope, though, because if you have a client with very many cancellations, it may mean the difference between keeping their business and cutting them loose.

Reply by Dmartz_IN on 8/22/05 9:25am
Msg #60722

What has getting bids on a new roof have to do with this business we are not bidding on jobs.

Reply by CarolynCO on 8/22/05 9:29am
Msg #60724

Re: Signings have nothing to do with roof repair estimates

I agree. We have used toner, paper and our time. Personally, me and my services are not FREE thank you very much!

Reply by CarolynCO on 8/22/05 9:39am
Msg #60726

Re: Sorry Kandi, I don't agree

*(consider the people who give free estimates. I recently had a new roof put on, and got 4 estimates. Every one of the three that didn't get the job spent their time, about 45 minutes to 1 hour measuring and figuring, not to mention driving time and gas) and SS's and SA's are no different. *

As I said in another post, a roofing estimate is no where similar to signings. You can bet your bottom dollar that you are paying for the cost of the estimate because it is a hidden fee. It's NOT free.

*Cancellation fees are not the norm. Neither is printing fees.*

Sorry, I have to disagree, or possibly the SSs I sign for really do appreciate me because each of them pay me for cancellation and printing fees.

Reply by hcampers/fl on 8/22/05 9:49am
Msg #60731

The way I see it.

I have to get in on this.
We are not giving estimates on closings. Our printing cost are not estimate cost. They are actual tangible cost.
If a loan is cancelled that isn't our fault. Maybe if the LO did a better job with getting information on thier end it would eliminate so many of these cancellations.
Last week I lost MANY jobs because of last minute cancels. I keep a smile on my face but the truth is it really pissed me off.
When I confirm with Br 45 min before appt. and say I'm on my way and I get there and they aren't signing because no one told them that I wouldn't have thier check? LO's aren't doing thier jobs comunicateing (sp) with thier clients. Why should I have to eat the cost of them not doing there job? Sorry I don't buy it!!!

Reply by JPS_CA on 8/22/05 10:43am
Msg #60759

Re: The way I see it.

Last week I had an experience with a non signing.
Last minute signing; When I got there; We started everything went well till borrower found the following:
1.- Payment was 500.00 more than quoted on the phone.
2.- Loan was adjustable. He wanted fixed.
3.- Borrower wanted the loan to be included with Taxes and Fire hazard Ins. (it wasnt).
4.- Borrower was quoted a non prepayment loan, well this one wasnt.

The borrower wasnt going to sign, but they called the LO, and told him to go ahead and sign and they will fix everything before the rescicion period. At the very last day of the RTC no body had called him and he decided to go ahead and cancell. He was suppossed to get something to get the above things fixed. He never got anything
I think the LO was hoping for this poor soul to not cancell.

I cant believe the guts of this people. The Closing costs for this couple were like 15k.
I didnt say anything and didnt give any opinion what so ever. Buy they were smart enough to cancell this thievs.

Reply by JanetK/CA on 8/23/05 12:58am
Msg #60974

Re: The way I see it.

I have to agree. Most of the time when there is a no-sign (and I bet lots of the cancellations, too), it's because a LO was over-anxious to get the deal signed and didn't do their job up front. And sometimes there are mistakes on the documents - loan processor errors? Title company errors? Who knows, but they aren't the notary's, yet the notary ends up not getting the full fee for the time slot reserved in good faith, even though other work could have been booked for that time. But if the notary makes an error, they are more and more often being threatened with fee reductions. We are the little fish in the pond and get nipped at from both directions.

Personally, I don't have a problem with being accountable for my own work and I understand why those requests are being made. I just wish the accountability worked backwards, too, especially with loan officers!

I had one yesterday with a relatively small loan that had more than $5,000 in broker commission. Borrower took one look at the HUD (cash out amount was $13,000 less than what was expected and prepaid interest, property taxes etc. didn't come close to making up the difference) and announced that he wasn't going to sign. The broker (who naturally wasn't available on a Sunday evening when the borrower *was* available) sure has lots to gain if this loan signed, but nothing to lose by giving it a try. And of course, this is just one example. It shows disrespect for my time, the title co's, EO's and ss's time, not to mention his own client!! Unfortunately, especially with the current market conditions, the LO is the one who drives the business and is in control. If the costs for no-signs were taken out of their next commission, I bet we'd see these kinds of problems reduced dramatically. [Well, I can dream, can't I? :>) ]

Reply by PAW_Fl on 8/22/05 11:58am
Msg #60782

>>> I do pay a small printing fee. $25 for one and $35 for two. It may not cover the complete cost of time and materials, but it is 100 percent out of my pocket on a deal that I have made nothing on, so I feel it is the most fair compromise. The SA is maybe not getting as much as they feel they should get, but it is better than nothing. <<<

What you are asking is that the SA (an independent contractor and business person) to share in your misfortune. That is not how businesses do business. You contract for a service. That service may include a particular item or component (product) that has an associated cost. So before the service can be completed, the product must be purchased or produced. The cost of that product is then due. The product, in this case, is a set of documents, cannot be used for any other purpose and must be destroyed. The time and materials have already been spent and should be paid for. If the materials could be used for something else, or someone else, then there may be room to wiggle in. But, not in this case.

You said you pay $25 for one and an additional $10 for two. Are you trying to tell me that it costs $15 less to print a second loan package?

This is one problem I have working with many signing services. They don't operate as a business and/or they don't expect us, the signing agents, to operate as business either. The SA is a service provider to that business. It is a business to business (B2B) relationship. You "buy" the SA's services.

Reply by Lisa Bittner on 8/22/05 3:20pm
Msg #60843

I thank everyone for the input on this issue. There are lots of expectations out there of what should be paid and everyone has their own right to set policy.

Being a signing agent is a popular thing, and in California there are many many of us... so it is getting very competitive out there... if we expect too much we could sit and wait for signings...
if we bend we may get more work.

The delicate balance of making SS or others to respect our time, yet be willing to let some things go is something every one of us has to decide. I have some Signing Agents who do not charge for the print fee and say to me, as long as they get the next round of signings in there area they will forgo the print charge. Others want a fee for time and material. Both SA are correct and within their own right to ask for a fee.

Yet it is up to me to set this standard and policy for my SS and not to expect others to agree.
As long as I make this clear prior to the accepting of the assignment then it is fine.

I certainly enjoy the debate, and if some want to be anonymous that is just fine.. its the content not the name.

Lisa

Reply by Margaret/Florida on 8/22/05 4:53pm
Msg #60861

Lately I have had more and more signings that are cancelled after printing edocs. Not only do you have the expense, but many times you wait hours for the edocs. My time is valuable and to get paid nothing or "something" as you call it is not acceptable. Recently I made a service call and I ended up solving the problem right before the service person arrived. I was still charged for the service call and they did nothing.
I paid for their time and I expected to pay. Try treating any other professional like that and see what you get.

Reply by Anon on 8/22/05 9:03pm
Msg #60923

Re: non signing print fee...Apples to Oranges

With certain service providers such as plumbers, locksmiths, electricians and the such, some states have laws that protect them with placing the demand on the customer to pay for the service call. If you do not pay, they have the right (in some states) to place mechanics' liens on your property.

As a notary in Florida, Margaret, you are commissioned by the governor to provide a service for the public. While you may have a loan signing business, remember the reason why you have it. You are not, to some degree, a private company that provides service calls for the ordinary consumer as the aforementioned. You are a notary public commissioned by the governor to provide a notarial service. Be thankful that the fees in Florida are negotiable, and you can decide what you will charge. A few of the states have state statutes that regulate the amount a signing agent may charge for travel and additional miles, a maximum on the amount charged for the overall loan signing, and a limit on the amount charge for the other overall services provided.

While some states like Florida allow notaries to charge $10.00 per signature, there are other states that are regulated to $1.00 per signature.

Still there are other states where the signing agent business does not exist at all. In GA, for example, the state BAR association fought the legislature until it received what it wanted. GA legislators, with lobbying provided by the state BAR, and a very determined fight by the State BAR won the decsion that the conveyance of a Mortgage/DOT by anyone other than an attorney who is a member of the GA state BAR is guilty of the Unauthorized Practice of Law (UPL) and is subject to penalty. Every state's notary statutes I have seen prohibits notaries from the Unauthorized Practice of Law.

The point I'm making is simple. If notaries and signing services, lenders, and title companies do not stop this ridiculous bickering, the state BARS of each state will win their campaign to stop the notary signing agents.

I had two signings in GA where I needed attorneys to provide witness only closings. I called 36 attorneys, and the response was all the same. They will only do the signings if they do the title work, issue the insurance, etc. The fees were running into an additional $3000.00. How was this resolved? The lender stiffed the title company and gave it to a title company or real estate attorney in GA. The title company in CA and the one in PA made nothing; I made nothing, and the attorney in GA made a bundle.

We all need to be careful about how we perceive ourselves a snotaries because we might just give the BAR the ammunition they need to win this fee war. We also need to stop pointing the finger as individuals and learn how to provide service as a business that wants to stay in business, and sometimes that means that each of us has to eat the cost of something.

Agree or not, study what is going on in the US with this situation before you respond.

Reply by Lisa Bittner on 8/22/05 10:38pm
Msg #60947

Re: non signing print fee...Apples to Oranges

I absolutely agree with you.

It is important SA's and SS (me included) realize our role is not so self important that we lose site of this fantastic job we get to do, little education, and the potential of very good compensation.

I started this with an attitude of never saying no to a signing request and it has paid off.. as interest rates start to raise and fewer jobs come our way... the one remembered is the one who never said no. Not the one who lives and dies by the nickel and dime.

To get back to the beginning, I do pay for canceled signings, just wanted to see what sounded fair to the masses out here in notary rotary land. Always entertaining to pop on here every few months to see what is being debated.. and how heated it gets at time.
Good thing we are not discussing Religion or Politics.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 8/22/05 11:06pm
Msg #60959

Re: non signing print fee...no snot here

***We all need to be careful about how we perceive ourselves a snotaries ***

Is this a new name for notaries that charge too much?

(sorry, couldn't resist )

Reply by Anon on 8/23/05 9:16am
Msg #61004

Re: non signing print fee...snotary...A new word?

I did not notice until after I posted. Sorry. I really did mean notaries. Perhaps I invented a new word, snotary. Maybe that is a notary turned ss. What do you think?

Reply by PAW_Fl on 8/23/05 8:29am
Msg #60992

Re: non signing print fee...Apples to Oranges

I don't know who you are but you need to get your facts straight, especially if you are talking about Florida.

You stated >>While you may have a loan signing business, remember the reason why you have it. You are not, to some degree, a private company that provides service calls for the ordinary consumer as the aforementioned. You are a notary public commissioned by the governor to provide a notarial service.<<

The Florida SOS has nothing to do with the signing service industry, nor does the Governor's office. A signing agent is an independent contractor providing a service and is regulated as such by the state of Florida. As part of that service (and a small part), is the notarial services provided to the the hiring agency, be it a signing service, title company or lender.

If the services we provided were simply notarial services, then we would not need business licenses (Occupational Licenses) to perform our duties. Also, we would not be able to do a majority of the things we do, like certifying ID information, which are not authorized by Florida Statutes for Florida notaries. The list of authorized duties of a Florida Notary Public is very limited and fully defined in Florida Statutes chapter 117.

You even contradict yourself somewhat about how we operate. Later in your post you state >>We also need to stop pointing the finger as individuals and learn how to provide service as a business that wants to stay in business, and sometimes that means that each of us has to eat the cost of something.<< Therefore, you are stating that we are running a business. And I agree with this point whole-heartedly. But it is a business that encompasses so much more than just notarial services.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your premise, though not fully with the specifics.

>>> While some states like Florida allow notaries to charge $10.00 per signature, there are other states that are regulated to $1.00 per signature. <<<

Florida statutes do not allow for $10.00 per **signature**. We are authorized a maximum fee of the $10.00 per **notarial act**. Again, those acts are explicitly described in the the Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries and in the Florida statutes.

Reply by Anon on 8/23/05 9:52am
Msg #61018

Re: non signing print fee...Facts are Accurate

Paul,

Agree or not, my facts are straight, especially about Florida.

I think what you have here is a matter of semantics.

I did not contradict myself at all. If it weren't for the fact that we are notaries, we would not be able to be signing agents (please reread from the top), thus there would be no business. Therefore, it has everything to do with the governor's office as without the commission, how could one work in Florida as a signing agent? It is a fine line, but not one with which I am willing to split the proverbial hair.

You said: "Also, we would not be able to do a majority of the things we do, like certifying ID information..."

Recheck 117.05, subsection 1(5) of the state statutes, or did I misinterpret what you said?

"1(5) A notary public may not notarize a signature on a document unless he or she personally knows, or has satisfactory evidence, that the person whose signature is to be notarized is the individual who is described in and who is executing the instrument. A notary public shall certify in the certificate of acknowledgment or jurat the type of identification, either based on personal knowledge or other form of identification, upon which the notary public is relying."

You also said: "The list of authorized duties of a Florida Notary Public is very limited and fully defined in Florida Statutes chapter 117."

You need to become more familiar with Florida Law, as more exists regarding notaries roles in Florida, e.g.

Article IV, Chapter 92, Chapter 113, Chapter 116, Chapter 118, Chapter 319, Chapter 655, Chapter 775, Chapter 943, and a few others, but I think I made my points.

Perhaps I should have been more clear and said $10.00 per notarial signature or act, with the exception of marriage ceremonies, as opposed to "signature," but again, I think that is a matter of semantics and splitting the proverbial hair again.

For the most part, I think we are on the same page, but we might just be misinterpreting what the other means. Obviously, we are both knowledgable people regarding this business and notary law in Florida. I don't think we have to go out of our ways to prove that, nor do we have to agree with each other.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 8/23/05 10:23am
Msg #61030

Re: non signing print fee...Facts are Accurate

As I said, I do agree with what you say. But, there is absolutely nothing that states a Signing Agent must also be a Notary Public. This is not to say that hiring agencies may want to ensure that the SA is also a notary, but there is no governmental agencies that says what a "Signing Agent" is or isn't. (At least as far as I know.) This means, that technically, a Signing Agent can drag along a Notary Public (such as a husband/wife team) wherein the SA does what the SA has to do and the notary does what the notary has to do. I've done it that way, and it works pretty good.

I certainly agree that there is more laws regard notaries than Chapter 117. I'm not disputing that. It's just that chapter 117 is the statute that defines what a notary is and what a notary can and cannot do. How that is applied, is covered in many other statutes. And, the SA needs to be aware of many of the different statutes as well, other than those that pertain to a notary, for example the recording statutes that state that deeds need to be witnessed while mortgages do not (FL s. 695 and 689).

We apparently are on the same page. It's tough to read into the printed words exactly what one means, but I agree, we are saying the same thing differently.

Reply by Anon on 8/22/05 9:06pm
Msg #60924

From one SS to another, I like your attitude.