Posted by lin on 8/6/05 12:12am
Msg #57297

withness and hands of seal

I am going through the loan and on the Adjustable Rate Note when its time for the borrower to sign on top of the line it says Witness the hands and seals of the undersigned, does that mean that I have to notarize this document

Reply by Brian/CA on 8/6/05 12:18am
Msg #57300

It just wants the borrower's signature.

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 8/6/05 12:26am
Msg #57302

Seal in this case means the signature(s).
Basically a rule of thumb is that if there is no notarial wording the document does not get notarized.

Reply by AllisonB/SCal on 8/7/05 8:46am
Msg #57454

Lin - You need to read a book or take a class

Save yourself some grief and worry - buy a good book on how to be a loan signer (Kathy Postson's book from www.signingregistry.com is terrific) or take a class. You're likely making mistakes and are opening yourself up to to going to jail or being fined or worse, losing your commission. Signing loans is serious business and there are plenty of professional training options available!

Reply by NY Notary on 8/7/05 6:24pm
Msg #57495

Re: Lin - You need to read a book or take a class

You need to lighten up. Let us all hope that the lender/TC is looking over these papers. Go to jail? Really? How is that? What examples can you give us in this case?

We are notaries. That is it. If the paper signed has no acknowledgement or jurat, where do you have any accountability?

Reply by ALlison B on 8/8/05 8:00am
Msg #57529

NY Notary - lighten up?

In California (maybe not NY) every notarial act that is illegal whether it's intended or if it's just a mistake, is subject to criminal prosecution and personal liability (uh, jail or prison, fines, losing your home, etc). Does this example satisfy you?

A newbie asking questions is certainly okay! But when they are basic and simple and often, my suggestion is to self-educate. Any notary error (at least in California) can hurt you legally. What's wrong with that opinion?

Reply by NY Notary on 8/8/05 2:06pm
Msg #57619

Re: NY Notary - lighten up?

You are talking about two different things. These are your words....

"and are opening yourself up to to going to jail or being fined or worse, losing your commission. Signing loans is serious business and there are plenty of professional training options available!"

Tell me what act on the loan signing makes the notary criminally responsible (jail time as your words state above). The legal responsibilities are limited to notarizing not the loan papers. Am I missing something in your posting. If so, please explain.

How many loan signing agents do you think we have in prison right now.

As for the seriousness, some lenders are even sending the docs directly to the borrower to sign and then find a notary to notarize the appropriate docs. (I of course do not agree with this method). However, do you think the lender is taking this seriously. What? Maybe if the borrower doesn't execute the docs correctly they will be put in prison.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 8/8/05 4:20pm
Msg #57651

Re: NY Notary - lighten up?

Allow me to make a few comments:

>>> Tell me what act on the loan signing makes the notary criminally responsible (jail time as your words state above). The legal responsibilities are limited to notarizing not the loan papers. Am I missing something in your posting. If so, please explain. <<<

Read you manual, handbook and/or statutes. In most states, NY included, not following proper notarial procedures, knowing falsifying documents, etc. are criminal offenses. Every time you put your seal on a document, you are attesting to a very high standard of integrity. Disregard for that integrity may and can result in criminal proceedings.

As for the non-notary portion, UPL looms ever so close to the Signing Agent whenever they discuss the loan, the documents, the lender, etc. There have been numerous court rulings against notaries and non-notaries alike, for UPL violations.


>>> How many loan signing agents do you think we have in prison right now. <<<

IMO, not enough. The office of Notary Public, a state official, is not to be taken lightly, though many do, including the courts and state notary divisions. There are laws in place that require notaries to be responsible for doing certain things. Those laws need to be enforced. And many of the them need to be reworded to remove ambiguity and provide for better policing of the notary community. Some states have good laws and some states laws need more teeth and better definition. I could go on and on about the need for Notary reform, but I don't have the time or inclination to do it right now.


>>> Maybe if the borrower doesn't execute the docs correctly they will be put in prison. <<<

They are a party to the documents. That basically exempts them from improper execution, but it doesn't release them of intent to defraud or providing otherwise false information.

Reply by Allison B on 8/8/05 4:24pm
Msg #57656

I Call "UNCLE" !

PAW, as usual is correct. Hey NY guy -- EVERY notarial act that is ILLEGAL, even if it is a brain fart, is subject to criminal prosecution and personal liablity.
PS How do you think those hijackers from 9-11 got ID? YES, Notaries Public! Andd do you think they are in prison? YES. Okay - you've got your example, now I call UNCLE!!!!

Reply by NY Notary on 8/8/05 7:23pm
Msg #57717

Re: NY Notary - lighten up?

I call uncle too. Obviously somewhere along the line I am misunderstood. I started in answer to this what I thought was an over reaction.

"Save yourself some grief and worry - buy a good book on how to be a loan signer (Kathy Postson's book from www.signingregistry.com is terrific) or take a class. You're likely making mistakes and are opening yourself up to to going to jail or being fined or worse, losing your commission. Signing loans is serious business and there are plenty of professional training options available!"

Of course signing loans is a serious business. I have done more quitclaims for deed correction because when the property was purchased someone did not do their job correctly. And it wasn't a signing agent.

I don't know how after re-reading my replies you could have thought I was referrring to falsifying documents or not following notarial procedures. Nowhere do I see that implied or even suggested. Outside of the notarial process where do you feel you have an obligation as to the contents of the document. In fact, my obligation in this process of to acknowledge or execute the oath where appropriate.

I take my job very seriously. I take the office of Notary Public extremely seriously. I just think if you are going to tell people they are going to jail there should be specifics.

IMO my job is to follow the instructions of the person who hired me, get the docs signed (not criticize the loan or terms), explain the docs to the extent of my power and get them in contact for answers that I cannot or should not provide. From the notarial standpoint, I obey the law. I would no more backdate a document than I would rob a bank. Oh yes, I take all of this very seriously.

Again, my point was that if you are going to tell people about the threat of jail, you should be specific.