Posted by Shelly_FL on 12/8/05 2:07pm
Msg #81197

NNA's position on correcting cerificates

Got the NNA's newsletter via email this morning and I'm wondering if anyone else has read the "Hint & Tips" article about loose certificates at the bottom. It suggests:

"If an error is discovered and a certificate needs to be corrected, the original document must be returned to the Notary, who can then make appropriate corrections to the certificate. Any corrections should be dated and initialed, then noted in the journal."

However, according to the NNA'S Florida Notary Law Primer, "A Notary may not change anything in a Notary certificate after the notarization is complete. State officials consider a notarization "complete" after the signer leaves the presence of the Notary", pg 47. (F.S. 117.107[8])

I plan to bring this irregularity to their attention, but thought this was laughable after reading the earlier thread about the risks of UPL and the pressure we get from SS's to oblige their requests.

Perhaps the correction of certificates, after the fact, is o.k. in some states, but to the best of my knowledge, it is against the law in Florida. What say you?

Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/8/05 2:58pm
Msg #81217

Another good example of why not to use the NNA as the ultimate source for information - including any of their Notary Law Primers! They are located in CA, but there are even errors in the CA notary Law Primer! When in doubt, folks, consult your own attorney or your state's SOS.

I'd also be careful of what advice you follow hereon this (or any other) message board. There are a few people you can count on to be right on target, but other than that, follow what you read very carefully. The expression "often wrong, never in doubt" comes to mind... I'm sure we've all met a few people like that in our lifetimes! I'm not attributing that to anyone in particular, but a little caution never hurts.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 12/8/05 3:11pm
Msg #81218

As always, very good advice, Janet - I agree.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/9/05 7:28am
Msg #81376

**There are a few people you can count on to be right on target, but other than that, follow what you read very carefully. **


Absolutely...that's what worries me about people not getting familiar with resources other than someone they don't EVEN know on tis board and accepting what they say at face value.

FOR CALIFORNIANs

I have been repeatedly told recently that an attorney in fact in CA *CAN* have their signature notarized on a jurat for the one giving the poa. What say ye? Did they lie to me?

Or is it okay?

Reply by PAW_Fl on 12/8/05 5:52pm
Msg #81259

You're right, Shelly. The NNA, in their infinite wisdom, has been wrong on many occasions when it comes to notary laws, practice and principles, especially in states other than CA.

At least the NNA Primer cited the correct statute, which reads: "A notary public may not amend a notarial certificate after the notarization is complete." When the SOS was asked about this a while back, the response was the following quote from the Governor's Manual: "Once you “complete” the notarization and return it to the document signer, you may not amend your certificate. For instance, if you forgot to state the type of identification or affix your seal and the document is returned to you on a later date by the receiving party, you may not correct your error. The document will require re-notarization, including the presence of the document signer."

Reply by O/CNotary on 12/8/05 7:06pm
Msg #81272

What if you forgot to affix your Notary seal, and everything

else indicated that you did in fact notarize the document, including listing it in your journal, could you replace the notary certificate with a loose ack without going back and having the signer resign and renotarize?

Reply by PAW_Fl on 12/8/05 9:12pm
Msg #81305

Re: What if you forgot to affix your Notary seal, and everyt

Not in FL. As I stated, the manual is explicit, "if you forgot to state the type of identification or affix your seal and the document is returned to you on a later date by the receiving party, you may not correct your error. The document will require re-notarization, including the presence of the document signer." You don't indicate what state you are in, so it may be difficult to answer correctly for YOUR situation.

Reply by O/CNotary on 12/8/05 10:55pm
Msg #81338

Paul, I am in CA! Looks like Titlegal thinks its okay to do!

Reply by PAW_Fl on 12/9/05 7:40am
Msg #81377

Re: Paul, I am in CA! Looks like Titlegal thinks its okay to

It may be okay in CA. It is **not** okay in FL. I can only respond in regards to FL statutes and practices per the Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries and F.S.A. 117.

Reply by Sharon Hahn on 12/9/05 3:18pm
Msg #81502

Re: What if you forgot to affix your Notary seal, and everyt

I'm in MN, but that doesn't make sense to me. In FL, do you need to notarize at the same time as the signing? My understanding in MN (and granted, we have hardly ANY notary laws) is that you can add a notarization to a doc a week later as long as the signer signed in front of you/met the notary requirements on the original signing date. So you could add a whole new certificate. The problem is with sending loose certificates - because they aren't attached to anything and are out of your control. Best to have the original returned to you for re-notarization - but the signer wouldn't have to reappear.

In response to: Not in FL. As I stated, the manual is explicit, "if you forgot to state the type of identification or affix your seal and the document is returned to you on a later date by the receiving party, you may not correct your error. The document will require re-notarization, including the presence of the document signer." You don't indicate what state you are in, so it may be difficult to answer correctly for YOUR situation.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 12/9/05 6:22pm
Msg #81544

Re: What if you forgot to affix your Notary seal, and everyt

Sharon asks, "In FL, do you need to notarize at the same time as the signing?"

Yes. F.S.A. 117.107(9) directs us to complete the notarization, which includes completing the certifcate, in front of the signers. Specifically, "(9) A notary public may not notarize a signature on a document if the person whose signature is being notarized is not in the presence of the notary public at the time the signature is notarized."

Reply by TitleGalCA on 12/8/05 11:15pm
Msg #81341

Re: What if you forgot to affix your Notary seal, and everything

Not in FL as Paul said, and that's true.

If you made an error (yours only, you screwed up) you can send a loose acknowledgment with all the correct information to correct YOUR error. I would never, ever have the borrower reappear. You're only correcting your certificate.

Get ready, OC, I'll get blasted for this, but I don't vary from my opinion - it's remained consistent to notary errors IN CALIFORNIA. I've been a notary since 1985, yet there's those "notaryclasses.com" lovers that go after me...and loads of anonymous.

You have to understand that the State of California has trained you and recognizes you as their Officer. Accept that responsibility and use the sense God gave you to do your job, and you'll be okay.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 12/8/05 9:43pm
Msg #81318

Now...here's real life.

This subject interests me alot, as I see it from one who works in the trenches (believe me, not many escrow officers post on NotRot - so reality isn't represented here). Yes, Shelly, corrections ARE OKAY, with FEW exceptions.

Case in point: Title company has docs to record. Wired funds are in. Green lights says "go". Title Officer reviews docs and finds the notary didn't fill in name of the signer on one deed of trust, but on the other deed of trust it is correct. Obviously they appeared at the same time. What to do?? Title Officer contacts Escrow who contacts Notary. "You need to send us a loose ack so we can record". Legalistic/Officious notary (who's read too much on NotRot) says....nooooo, the signer has to re-apprear before me". Excuse me are you kidding???? YOU the Notary made a mistake. Just send us the correct work (ack) so we can record. Legalistic/Officious Notary says....no, oh my they have to re-appear". EO thinks..."well, that's the last time I hire you".

To me, the Notary is just correcting the work they should have done RIGHT in the first place. I've posted as such, and anybody who knows me also knows my position on this. Send the flippin' loose certificate so you, as Notary, don't STOP or HOLD UP the closing.

Corrections are corrections...to a certificate. Reappearing is another matter entirely and IMO stops the flow of business. I won't even say "pick your poison" as there's no poison here. Corrections should be looked at as such, and not with this fear of the notary police coming after you.

Check out the recent posts with BrendaTX, PAW, me, Jon and others. Opinions of notary work vary from SOS to Attorney to Title Company. USE YOUR HEAD. THINK OF THE PURPOSE OF IDENTIFICATION. That's your job, along with being a signing agent.

My personal soap box - just one more opportunity to spell it out. Today, I filled in TWO bad certificates from notaries that didn't do their jobs right (and I only had 10 recordings). Shame on you. I made the sale close - you as notary would have delayed it for days and lender/EO would not have hired you again.

You're welcome - I'll never post names, just know that I'm looking out for you as I'm also a notary signing agent with a twist.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 12/8/05 10:37pm
Msg #81334

Re: Now...here's real life.

On the surface, I certainly agree that we often need to do what needs to be done. However, if there are explicit instructions, especially statutes that contradict what 'needs to be done', then it's too bad that the business flow suffers. There must be a reason the statute is in place and we cannot choose when to follow the statute and when not to. So, barring any explicit instructions to the contrary, I see no harm in making a correction to a certificate.

>>> USE YOUR HEAD. THINK OF THE PURPOSE OF IDENTIFICATION. That's your job, along with being a signing agent. <<<

From the Executive Office of the Governor [Florida] - Notary Section (prepared by: Jennifer Bertsch, Notary Education Coordinator):

"In talking with notaries, it is surprising how many of them do not understand the basic act of “notarizing a signature.” Many incorrectly assume that they are just verifying identification and witnessing a signature. But, the act of notarization is much different.

"When you notarize a signature, you must perform one of two official notarial acts: take an acknowledgment from or administer an oath (or affirmation) to the document signer. These two acts have different purposes. The lack of understanding of these basic duties causes confusion and often leads to errors in notarizations, even among the most experienced notaries."

>>> Today, I filled in TWO bad certificates from notaries that didn't do their jobs right (and I only had 10 recordings). Shame on you. I made the sale close - you as notary would have delayed it for days and lender/EO would not have hired you again. <<<

Imo, it's not your job to modify or correct an notary certificate that was prepared by someone else. I'm sorry if a loan got delayed and the notary wouldn't get hired again, but there is no excuse for breaking the law, whether we agree with it or not. Our oath of office states that we will abide by the laws and uphold the constitution of the State of Florida.

The preceding is based on Florida practices, procedures and statutes. It varies from state to state.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 12/8/05 11:06pm
Msg #81340

Re: Now...here's real life.

Paul, I knew well that I'd draw your response.

Further, I know as well that perfection doesn't exist in real estate, only in Heaven.

Yes, you quote law citation by citation, and I won't argue it, as you are an asset to this board. Stil,l I'll point to your posts yesterday about Brenda's dilemna about the AIF. Don't make me go back to that post to point out that it is us, as notaries who are policing ourselves.

As much as I admire you, and your statement "it's up to us" in reponse to Brenda...I'll hold you to that statement. Let's face it my friend, nothing is perfect in this business.

I also appreciate your no-room-for-error statements about Florida Law. It is very sound and good advice for new ones. I appreciate, as do others, your direction on this board, and it's ALWAYS good stuff. You, all by yourself, are most appreciated - just look at all the posts that say "thanks"!!! But you or any other notary is not the end-all or be-all in this business.

The topic was correction to certificates and whether or not to return to the borrower. I hold that is up to the individual notary, with discernment and variation as to State statutes. I am not addressing your dilemna in Florida about changed certificates, but the normal flow of business.

A correction is a "correction" to a NOTARY ERROR, not a re-sign or re-visit. The notary has to have the mature understanding of their commission and use it with responsibility - and not be so legalistic as to stop the ebb and flow of business.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 12/9/05 7:45am
Msg #81379

Re: Now...here's real life.

>>> A correction is a "correction" to a NOTARY ERROR, not a re-sign or re-visit. <<<

This is contrary to FL law and therefore contrary to what **I** (or any FL notary) is authorized to do to correct a notary error. It may be okay in CA and other states, which is fine. But the law is the law and we must abide by it, right, wrong, or indifferent.

Reply by Anonymous on 12/8/05 11:26pm
Msg #81342

Re: Now...here's real life.

A word on providing Notarized Loose Certificates.

An Acknowledgement or Jurat must be filled out at the time of notarization in order to complete the notary act legally. What if the lender calls you and informs you that you forgot to include an acknowledgement in a loan package? You need to know that it is illegal to complete an Acknowledgement or Jurat before or after the notary act was performed. It must be done during the notary act. With that said, many notaries, if requested to provide a faxed copy of an Acknowledgement or Jurat, request a copyof the document for which the loose certificate was omitted and complete the acknowledgement or jurat after reviewing the document. If a lender or title company calls you and requests a loose certificate, you are in a difficult situation. Complying with their request is against the law and not complying will result in that company never calling you again. The best way to handle this is to ensure that all Acknowledgements and Jurats are included with the original loan documents. Otherwise, it may require a trip back to the signer so that the acknowledgement or jurat can be complated
legally. In reality, notaries never return to the signer for this kind of scenario, but I just wanted to inform you what you can legally do and what you can not. How you handle this kind of situation is up to you, but remember that a notary is always personally responsible
for any act complated whether through negligence or illegally.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 12/8/05 11:33pm
Msg #81343

Re: Now...here's real life. Anonymous

***Complying with their request is against the law***

Please inform the board where that is against the law, and what law it is "against". If you did NOT do your job at the signing, where is the Law that says the borrower, lender and title company must suffer for Y0UR error?

I'm very interested in that citation.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/9/05 11:32pm
Msg #81601

Re: Now...here's real life.

Sorry, TitleGalCA, but I think I need to disagree with you a bit on this one. For CA, at least, I think there is a middle ground. First of all, when you refer to a notary who is "legalistic/ officious" I think I understand. I'm thinking "a little bit of information is dangerous" - and I was probably like that when I was brand spanking new! However, when you say "legalistic" I also see an implication that there are times when it isn't necessary to follow the law and I think that is wrong. I also unfortunately think it is very common thinking in title company offices, where the goal is to just get the loan closed.

Back to the middle ground... I don't see anything in the CA handbook that says a borrower would have to reappear if a notary makes an error on a certificate notarizing their signature. (I guess it would depend on the doc and the extent of the error.) However, I'm not comfortable with the idea of simply mailing out another loose certificate, rather than having the notary fix it or personally attach a corrected one. That presents too much opportunity for inappropriate actions. (I'll leave it at that.) I'm sure the courts are full of cases where people broke the law for the sake of expediency. If the notary really screws up, then they shouldn't expect to be hired again. (There's where common sense could prevail. If it's a fluke by an otherwise reliable notary, maybe they deserve another chance. Let's face it, mistakes are made frequently by lenders and title co's, as well as notaries.)

Reply by TitleGalCA on 12/9/05 11:46pm
Msg #81602

Re: Now...here's real life.

***However, I'm not comfortable with the idea of simply mailing out another loose certificate, rather than having the notary fix it or personally attach a corrected one. That presents too much opportunity for inappropriate actions.***

Using a normal scenario, imagine there's a mistake and escrow needs a new certificate to record. Just how many illegal, potentially dangerous documents can one loose certificate, filled out specific to the document, be attached to? I appreciate the concern, but in reality - how many escrow officer are laying in wait to commit illegal acts? They're busy, stressed and under pressure to close - the odds of them taking the time to plot and scheme an illegal act to obtain a loose certificate are pretty miniscule.

***Let's face it, mistakes are made frequently by lenders and title co's, as well as notaries.)***

A truer statement has never been made! Yet, the title company (escrow officer) is a neutral party to the transaction. They are in the middle and have to close to please all parties.

An eleventh hour call to a notary to fix a mistake with a loose certificate happens for a reason. We can't close - and it's the borrower who ultimately pays the biggest price.