Posted by fiKS on 1/25/05 4:57pm
Msg #18095

Anyone here does title abstract?

Is there much business doing this as an independent contractor? What is the average fee for limited title search for refi? Where's a good place to learn how to do title search - online or from books. Thanks.

Reply by Shannon/Va on 1/25/05 5:09pm
Msg #18097

I have been a title examiner for 14 years. There is no class you can take to teach you what you need to know. Your best bet is to get hired by an attorney or title company who can properly train you or know someone who can train you. There is way too much to learn and hands on is the best way. Especially since every county is different. You must have e&o coverage as well and most of the major companies who offer e&o will not insure you without 3 years experience. The few who will insure you as a beginner will charge you well over $2500 a year for your policy.

Reply by fiKS on 1/25/05 7:02pm
Msg #18116

I found this website. http://learnanytime.net/titleab/

Thanks for the info about insurance, Shannon. Whatever the cost to get started would be ok if justified by income. I am hoping someone can give some insight what the average fees are and if this is something that Lenders or Title companies hire independent contractors to do.

Reply by Mary Pierce on 1/25/05 7:12pm
Msg #18120

The attorney I work for charges $100 for 60 year searches and $30 for one owner searches. I believe $15 for bringdowns or recording docs.

Reply by Abstractor on 1/25/05 8:24pm
Msg #18126

I've been in the title business for over 20 years and my family has been doing it since the late 1800's. If you want to learn how to check title, find out who is is best in the area and work under them. There are alot of abstractors out there or rather title searcher but a majority of them don't really know what they are doing. It takes alot of time to really learn the business and the liability is out there! Take my advice work under an attorney or a reputable title company and learn the ropes.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 1/25/05 8:54pm
Msg #18130

My opinion is the same as Shannon and the rest. I have been doing title searches for 8 years. The first 2 years were under an attorney. E&O insurance was a pain in the butt to get at first. I have hired someone to work with me but I will not let her do any titles on her own for at least 6 months or a year and that will only be document retrievals. I will leave the rest to my own expertise. However, I do not know everything and after 8 years, I have learned something new every day.
Not a book or online course that will teach you what you need to know.
You can go to www.sourceoftitle.com for lots of answers. There is a message board where you can ask questions and get answers.

Reply by Kimberly Crowe on 1/25/05 9:33pm
Msg #18134

I've worked in the title insurance industry for almost 10 years and have been involved with title searching during that time. I've seen independent abstractors charge about $15 for bringdowns and filings, $35 for current owners and anywhere from $65 up for a full title search. In Ohio, we go back 42 years and in Indiana, we go back 50 years. (I'm right on the line, live in one state, work in the other) Your area might be different as far as pricing. You need to get in under someones wing...someone who knows what they are doing...if you don't, you might get in over your head.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 1/25/05 10:12pm
Msg #18141

In Maryland, I get $45-$75 for a current owner and $15 for recordings. It depends on what company it is. GAC and Transunion are the worst payers. They want to pay $35 for a current owner. I do not know one abstractor or company around here that will do a full title for $65; most of them charge $150 and up.

Reply by Shannon/Va on 1/25/05 10:35pm
Msg #18143

Fi, all I can say is that $30 is way too low to charge for a current owner. If you do no know how to do searches and do not have experience, you may not get the clients you need to justify the expenses. Believe me, this is not a get rich business. We abstractors have the same issues I see many of the notaries here have. People charging way too low for services and it brings everyone down.
Check out www.sourceoftitle.com loke Loretta said. You will see my name there alot too. I am the chairperson for the education & training committee for NALTEA, which is the National Association of Land TItle Examiners and Abstractors.

And also know that there is a big difference between a searcher, an abstractor and an examiner. If you don't know the difference, you probably aren't experienced enough to be an examiner.

This is in no way a business that can be self taught. It is the 'newbies' that are self taught and online taught that cause our E&O to rise due to claims from lack of knowledge. And are the same people who set their prices too low and cause us all to lose money. Now those people who started out as 'newbies' and have been in it a while now I am sure know what they are doing and learned their lessons. I am not trying to put anyone down.
But do remember that experience will always win.
Feel free to email me if you have other questions.

Reply by fiKS on 1/25/05 11:11pm
Msg #18146

Thanks for all your responses. I have a part time day job which I'd like to replace slowly. Other part of the day I am available for loan signing. Victoria Ring had several suggestions and being a Title searcher was one. All your responses are helpful and I will check out the sourceoftitle website. I didn't realize there are title searches, abstractors and examiners. What is the difference? V.Ring did not identify these.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 1/26/05 1:00am
Msg #18151

An abstractor does title searches. A title examiner works for a title company putting the title together to write a policy. That's the way it is in Maryland.

Reply by BrendaTX on 1/26/05 5:55am
Msg #18160

If I remember correctly, VR's book said before you tried to get work from a title company or do work researching titles you should find employment where you learn this type of work directly from a title company.

I agree with others that doing title searches of ANY kind should be done ONLY after having experience.

Even through title searching is supposed to be an exact science which can be taught, it's my experience it is also an art which must be learned. My best advice is don't treat the business of constructing a chain of title lightly. It's very important in the overall scheme of things.

Reply by Abstractor on 1/26/05 12:18pm
Msg #18213

Loved reading the feed back on this one. Who care what someones title is....Get Educated, Get Experience and remember the LIABILITY involved. Abstracting is very interesting but
it's not a Big Money Business if you don't know what your doing. With anything you do education helps but an open mind and experience is what makes you good at whatever you do. Good Luck and I hope you enjoy the Title/Abstract Business.

Reply by sue on 1/26/05 7:47am
Msg #18164

the day I decided Victoria Ring was totally 'out there' was the day I read her thoughts on title searching. She thinks it's 'just like doing geneology' and she doesn't see why anyone would need E&O.

Reply by Bobbi in CT on 1/26/05 8:20am
Msg #18170

Abstract/Search vs Examine

In CT the title for a non-attorney who reviews title to real property (here at 169 different town offices Land Records, zoning & building records, about 100 Probate Courts, plus state courts, plus federal court [if bankruptcy in chain of title]), is called a "title searcher" or "title abstractor."

The ATTORNEY who reviews the "title abstract" aka "title search" is "performing the title exam." Only any attorney can "examine" title for defects. I prepare title insurance policies for an attorney-agent of multiple title insurance companies.

I am an old school title searcher (back when title searches were 60 years to a Warranty Deed or greater), with an attorney and college attorney-taught education in it, plus continuing legal education in the field. The fees used to be $150-300. With the advent of every lender and owner being marketed a title insurance policy, the search back period has been reduced often to the last title policy issued - which means fees could be $50-75. Check your local colleges for ABA-approved, attorney or "active" title searcher taught classes. They are INVALUABLE. Mine class was TWO semesters, including one full semester held at a Town Land Records and Probate Court.

Before you start, call a few title companies and lawyers and ask 1) are you hiring title searchers, 2) what experience do you require and what E&O bond amount do you require, and 3) what is the average fee for a title search and turn around time (how fast do you have to get it done). CT doesn't have on-line searches. See if your state has county recording (cuts down travel time) and on-line title search abilities. Good luck and remember - if real estate purchases and refinances slow down, so do title searches.

Reply by sue on 1/26/05 8:33am
Msg #18171

Re: Abstract/Search vs Examine

before title insurance all inclusive fees we charged "1/2 of 1%" of the sales price of the property. Don't know why it was worded that way but that was how everyone said it.

Reply by Julie-MI on 1/26/05 9:46am
Msg #18187

A searcher and abstractor are the same, they do all the gathering of the information, at the recorders office, tax office, probate office and circuit court (looking for judgements, divorces, probate, etc). They are the low guys on the totem pole and take the fall if they miss something. They give all the data and copies to the EXAMINER.

The examiner is the big whig. they look to make sure if the property is held as tenants in common, joint tenants, they make sure if a mortgage is in a dower or homestead state, that they make sure in the title commitment, that the non-borrower spouse or vested owners sign.
They are the folks that interperate the data the abstractor collected.

In Michigan, most title companies use their own in-house title plants. They are usually more accurate that than the data at the recorders office. When I left employment at my Register of Deeds Office, we had a folder of over 100 documents that will NEVER be found in the county records, and cannot be added to the search indexes. I left 10 years ago, I shudder to think how many more were added to that collection.

Reply by Lee/AR on 1/26/05 8:55am
Msg #18177

Amen! (nm)