Posted by Toots on 1/13/05 10:51pm
Msg #16672

Continuation....Need your words of wisdom

First, I'm sorry for starting a new thread...the other has been purged into another page. I want to be sure everyone reads this.

Second, but most important...I want to thank everyones input. It got a little heated, off and on, but none the less, it is part of learning and so it's appreaciated.

Next, I want to apologize if I appear preMadonna-ish! It was not intended, and I'm sorry if I unintentionally offended anyone. See, from the time when I became a NSA, I read this and a few other forums religiously. The message I was getting time and time again was that NSA's responsibilities are limited to witness signing + NP act. We answer borrowers questions with "I'm just a notary." Looking from that side of the fence...how hard can it be? If you're careful, you shouldn't make any mistakes....If the documents had errors, I'm not to blame. I have read this in the forums over and over. So, can you blame me for being surprised that I needed to do 75 loan signings first? I ask myself, how many different ways do I need to see the line for signature and notary seal, before I should begin working for the big dogs?

Well, I consulted with a fellow NSA (off this board) and bang! It all made sense! She said to me that when you work for an SS, they walk you through the signing. But when you work for a title company, you're it! That says it all.

So, again, thank you everyone for your input.

Reply by maureen/nh on 1/13/05 10:57pm
Msg #16673

Amen, now you've got it.
Ready to play with the big boys?

Reply by Toots on 1/14/05 2:04am
Msg #16691

Maureen, don't tease. Where are the big boys?

Reply by BrendaTX on 1/14/05 12:57am
Msg #16685

Toots,

Hey, no problem. I can see from your perspective it was probably amusing to hear our replies because placing a stamp straight is not exactly brain surgery.

**The message I was getting time and time again was that NSA's responsibilities are limited to witness signing + NP act. We answer borrowers questions with "I'm just a notary." Looking from that side of the fence...how hard can it be? If you're careful, you shouldn't make any mistakes....If the documents had errors, I'm not to blame. I have read this in the forums over and over.**

After awhile you'll know the difference between being just a notary, and when you are not just a notary for the purposes of your job.

You hang in there.

Reply by JanetK/CA on 1/14/05 1:25am
Msg #16689

"Just a notary..." NOT!

Another good point, Brenda, which I wanted to comment on before. Actually, we are charging extra fees to do the signing agent part ( we hope) so we are definitely more than "just a notary". I try to never use those words with a borrower. If that were the case, why wouldn't the notary on every corner be able to take care of every loan package? A signing agent should also be introducing (not explaining or interpreting) the documents to the borrower. That may include pointing out key features in the document, depending on how knowledgable the borrower is, etc. I can't count how many times I've seen a borrower misunderstand something in the document and not want to sign as a result. Sometimes I can help them work through it and sometimes it requires having them call their loan officer (even if I know the answer). If you're working with a signing agency, they will likely be the ones to contact and to help work through these kinds of situations.

So, yes, Toots, you got it absolutely right! Thanks for helping us all put it into simple terms.

Reply by HisHughness on 1/14/05 1:36am
Msg #16690

Re: "Just a notary..." NOT!

Janet, would you explain for me the difference between "introducing," "explaining," and "interpreting" a loan document? How would you handle those three supposedly different approaches with, say, a TIL? Or RTC? Or DOT? What does it mean to "introduce" a DOT? To "explain" one? To "interpret" one?

Thanks.

Reply by JanetK/CA on 1/14/05 3:15am
Msg #16693

Re: "Just a notary..." NOT!

Very good question, but I won't presume to "explain" the differences in detail. Most of what I do is reading the title of the document, pointing to the key features and saying something like "here is how the property is vested, here's your loan amount, maturity date," etc. On the RTC, it would be something like "this section explains your rights, this part says how to cancel, etc..." I will, however, explain how the recission period is calculated.

If they have a question about a prepayment penalty, for another example, I might find that section in the note (or on the TIL) and read to them what the doc says. On some documents (e.g. disclosures), I might go out on a limb and use a simple sentence with an abbreviated description of what the document is about. I think people just like to have some idea of what they are signing and it usually doesn't take much.

Interpreting (or giving an opinion) would be an attorney's realm, so I'll leave that to you. If you have any additional insight, I'm sure we'd all appreciate your perspective.

Reply by Ernest_CT on 1/14/05 4:10am
Msg #16695

What does an attorney say, Hugh?

It sounds to me like Janet is getting awfully close to the line (or may be even crossing it) into "legal advice" territory. Am I more paranoid than necessary? Or should each of us take this question to our respective SOS's Office?

Reply by BrendaKhan/FL on 1/14/05 9:05am
Msg #16705

Re: What does an attorney say, Hugh?

I think you are being paranoid about this!

I do "explain/describe/interpret" or "let them know what they are signing" to the borrower(s). Call it what you may but that is what I do. I do not give legal advice, suggestions, definitions of terms or charges or opinions good or bad pertaining to any docs. If any questions arise such as what is this charge or why is there a penalty, I always inform them to call the loan officer and discuss that with them.

I state to the borrowers that I am a Signing Agent not just a Notary. As stated above in another post, I do more than just a Notary job when I conduct my closings. I have the majority of my borrower(s) thank me for being thorough and knowledgable and often comment how comfortable they felt in signing all the docs.

Yes I mainly have repeat business with the same companies as I also recommend that the borrower calls the loan officer and lets them know about my excellent services I provided for them. and No I am not "cocky" just good at what I do! BK-FL

Reply by Charm_AL on 1/14/05 10:31am
Msg #16712

Re: What does an attorney say, Hugh?

Brenda -

"Yes I mainly have repeat business with the same companies as I also recommend that the borrower calls the loan officer and lets them know about my excellent services I provided for them. and No I am not "cocky" just good at what I do! BK-FL"

I was wondering if the signing services or loan companies ever call to follow up with the borrowers for feedback on our service?

Reply by xxxx on 1/14/05 10:34am
Msg #16713

Re: What does an attorney say, Hugh?

has anyone known a notary to be sued over anything regarding their loan 'explinations' or anythng at all to do with their notary services?

Reply by xxxx on 1/14/05 10:36am
Msg #16714

Re: What does an attorney say, Hugh?

I am just curious, what is the worst that can happen?
Notary stamp/certificate revoked?

what is the worst case senario? WOuld saying "I'm just a notary" protect you in those questionable situations?

Reply by Brenda J Khan on 1/14/05 11:24am
Msg #16722

Re: What does an attorney say, Hugh?

I have had several ss and loan officers call me after the closings a day or so later and tell me my feedback. I have some companies that include a form in the docs asking when it is a good time to contact the borrower to review thier closing and loan. So my answer would be yes they do contact the borrower. BK-FL

Reply by HisHughness on 1/14/05 12:30pm
Msg #16737

Re: What does an attorney say, Hugh?

I have no qualms about either "introducing" or "explaining" a real estate document to a borrower; I think that is what I am hired to do. If the lender just wants a notary, he should hire a notary.

As I have stated before, I think the line is crossed into UPL when I apply the intent of the document to the borrowers' circumstances or to a hypothetical set of circumstances. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can read a document; the same goes for a statute, constitutional provision, regulation, ordinance, etc. The same person can state what the intent of the provision in question apparently is. It is when the borrower says, "Well, I know my neighbor's fence is on my property, but we have this informal agreement..." Responding to that, to me, is quite obviously going over the line.

Reply by Ted_MI on 1/14/05 4:59pm
Msg #16778

Re: What does an attorney say, Hugh?

Hugh,

So following your analogy, I take it if you "go over the line", then you are on your neighbor's property? Natch !! Clear as a bell. *S*

Reply by Ted_MI on 1/14/05 10:53am
Msg #16716

Re: "Just a notary..." NOT!

Janet,

My take on all this is exactly what the "attorney's realm" is is somewhat of a grey area. I believe what notaries should really avoid doing is giving advice to borrowers; that is a definite no-no. I think giving a borrower an overview of what a document is all about is part of our role. I agree with you wholeheartedly that people (borrowers) like to have a general idea of what they are signing. I have done a number of HELOCS, and I do exactly that all the time.

By way of background, yes I am an attorney.

Reply by CaliNotary on 1/14/05 2:31pm
Msg #16765

Re: "Just a notary..." NOT!

"I think giving a borrower an overview of what a document is all about is part of our role. "

I agree with this. We should be able to explain what a Deed of Trust is, what a TIL is, etc. But our answers should be the same at every signing, never tailored for the specific loan that we're doing.

As far as specifics go, if we're able to find the answers to their questions in the documents it's fair to point them out to the borrower. Example, finding the prepayment penalty clause and showing it to them, pointing out their interest rate, payment, length of loan, etc. in the note.

If I can't point them to the exact place in the document that answers their question about their specific loan that's when I tell them they need to call their loan rep for the answer.

Reply by Ted_MI on 1/14/05 5:12pm
Msg #16780

Re: "Just a notary..." NOT!

CN,

I agree with you that the answers or responses should be consistent, not tailored to specific situations. Because if they are tailored to specific situations, that is more akin to giving advice, I think. And that is what a non-attorney notary should stay away from.

As far as getting into specifics in the loan documents, I suppose that really depends on one's comfort level and familiarity with the documents. I personally weould be leery about some paragraph conceivably modifiying a paragraph that I was referring to. So at this point, I would say "Heh, talk to your loan officer."

But do I say the morgage is the document that secures the loan the borrower is going to make to you. Statements like that - sure.

Reply by JanetK/CA on 1/14/05 7:52pm
Msg #16805

Re: "Just a notary..." NOT!

I agree with both of you. Thanks for putting it better than I did! (It was waaaay too late last night!)

Have a fun but safe weekend, everyone!