Posted by Becky on 1/8/05 4:02pm
Msg #15865
Journal Entry - URGENT..signing today
I'm in the state of Kansas, where keeping a journal is not mandatory, but recommended. So, I've decided to start keeping one. I have a couple of questions:
1. Should I include an entry in the journal for the witness?
2. If I administer an oath, is this a seperate entry in the journal?
3. Do you begin signings in the journal before signing the documents?
3. If the signing was cancelled after the entries were put in the journal, what do write in the journal?
Thanks
| Reply by Trudy on 1/8/05 4:22pm
Msg #15866
You don't have to have an entry for the witness.
I the comments area, where the borrowers sign your Notary Book,
just write the witness name.
One entry per Loan is fine -- just make sure you add all pertinent
info (i.e. Mtg. Refi or HELOC, etc.)
I don't know what your State says about signing your Notary Journal
but, mine says to have everyone sign the notary journal before the
Notarizations -- that way people won't just get up and walk out
without signing your Journal, while you are working with other people
or papers.
You didn't say what type of notary journal you are working with --
Some NSA's have the NotaryRotary notary journal that is specific
to Loan Signings -- I don't have this one yet but, will look into it
further sometime this year.
| Reply by PAW Notary Services on 1/8/05 4:45pm
Msg #15868
Florida doesn't require a journal either, but I keep one anyway. I put just about everything in it. One line per signer. The NotaryRotary journal is ideal for loan signings as well as general notary work, which I do a lot of too. The journal is "your" record of what transpired. Use the comments section for notes, witnesses names (except as noted below), assigning agency, etc. Again, it's your journal and possibly the only record of the transaction.
I have the signers sign my journal at the end of the process. If the signing is aborted, I don't have them sign it, but I make copious notes that the signing was aborted. If someone told me to sign their journal before signing the documents, I would refuse, because it may not accurately reflect an aborted signing, or show that I signed a document that I refused to sign.
Witnesses signatures generally aren't recorded since their signatures aren't being notarized. However, there are documents, especially with estate planning, that the witnesses signatures must be acknowledged or the witnesses must be placed under oath. In those cases, an entry in the log must be made for them as well.
| Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 1/8/05 5:24pm
Msg #15872
Hmmmmm!
You can certainly come up with some provocative topics to discuss, Paul. It NEVER would've occurred to me to even consider having someone sign my journal AFTER the signing was completed & I STILL wouldn't even after reading your rationale. I have the signer(s) place their signatures in my journal in the very beginning as part of the identification process BEFORE I do anything else. I check their signature as they've written it in my journal against the signature on their photo ID. The logic I'd subscribe to is it wouldn't make any sense to proceed any further if there was a discrepancy or problem at this point. As for aborted signings, all it would take to satisfy any qualms a signer may have is to line out & initial any entries or signatures made in the journal while you're still in their presence. The way you've worded your journal signature practice makes it sound like we're an adversary of the signer instead of a neutral public official. I hope you're saying this is simply a matter of preference on your part, but I'd adamantly insist there's nothing wrong with obtaining the journal signature in the beginning rather than the end. JMHO!
| Reply by CarolynCO on 1/8/05 5:32pm
Msg #15874
Re: Hmmmmm!
Dennis,
My routine is the same as yours. One reason is so it's done and over with and all concentration will be on the loan docs, and the second reason is so I know that they actually have a valid ID at the very beginning, instead of going all through the signing and at the end finding out that they don't even have an acceptable ID.
I've only had two signings that canceled. I had them cross through their signature and "X" through their thumb print and I wrote the notation in the comments section that they canceled the signing. I've also never had a borrower refuse to sign before the signing.
| Reply by Happy in Fl on 1/8/05 6:32pm
Msg #15883
Re: Hmmmmm!
Good to read various opinions and methods 'you-all' are using..
I have my Journal signed, and at least one of borrowers thumb print added (have Notary Rotary Journal--it's great)- immediately after swearing them in--Oh - if it's Husband and Wife I have them raise their hand -one at a time- and individually answer to the Oath--(per ASN Newsletter- believe November Issue)- Haven't had anybody object yet- to Oath Ceremony- or Fingerprint- or signing my Journal--
Had one cancel- after leaving appointment- when all docs were not correct- SS said for me to make the appointment with borrower for next day, for re-signing both Loans, and that they would Pay me another fee- but borrower was upset that lender did not give the agreed upon interest on the Heloc- so he cancelled-- I noted that in the Journal-- and Title Company paid me the Full fee to boot..
Like Paul said- in Florida we are not yet required to keep a journal- but look at all the info that you record- for possible future reference if you would ever need to give an account of what transpired. (To have to rely totally on Memory - with this ol'timer would be a fiasco.)
| Reply by PAW Notary Services on 1/8/05 8:46pm
Msg #15904
Re: Hmmmmm!
This is my personal preference. As for the ID verification, I have a form that I always complete at the very beginning (and is in accordance with the Patriot Act) that can be, and has been, used if necessary by title companies. This form stays with my completion report (unless requested by the title company or lender). That form includes the information from the signer's ID. Quite often, the names on the documents are not exactly the same as the name on their ID. The journal shows the names as they were used in the documents. The AIV that I use shows the names as it appears on their ID, along with the address as it appears on the ID, which is often not the same as the address for the signing and also not necessarily the address of their residence.
Please explain "The way you've worded your journal signature practice makes it sound like we're an adversary of the signer instead of a neutral public official."
I'm not advocating signing the journal at the beginning or at the end. To me, it's notary preference. I used an AIV long before the Patriot Act and before I used a journal. I only started using a journal when I started doing loan signings. If a journal was required, which I wish it were, and the statute mandated the time to sign, I would follow the statute. Since there is no statute or definitive guidance on this subject from the State of Florida, I have chosen a way that works for me and I am comfortable with. My journal is MY record. I don't like cross outs and initials in MY journal. (That's from my banking days. Corrections were NOT allowed.) To me, the proof in the pudding, for MY records, is the signing of the journal by the signers acknowledging they completed the loan signing, and what documents were notarized.
I find your comments quite often short sighted. Specifically when you started off with, "It NEVER would've occurred to me to even consider having someone sign my journal AFTER the signing was completed ..." I would have thought you would have weighed both ways rather that being so narrow sighted as not to even consider an alternative. I am glad I offered you an other opinion, not necessarily the correct opinion, but an alternative, none the less. If your way works for you, then that's great. I prefer the alternative. I don't consider your way any more or less correct than mine, either.
The decision to use a journal is optional for many. The decision as to when to have the journal signed is optional for many. Personal preferences are just that and I'm not going to squabble with you are anyone else whether one way is better than the other. The objective is met. End of discussion (as far as I'm concerned.)
| Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 1/8/05 9:53pm
Msg #15910
I Also Find Your Comments...
...to oftentimes be very suffocating, tedious, & self elevating...but that wasn't the intended tenor of my remarks in this reply. I actually meant for my initial "NEVER" comment to be a compliment to you for coming up with an angle on journal procedures I hadn't thought of.
As for my "adversary" remark it comes directly from your statement: "If someone told me to sign their journal before signing the documents, I would refuse, because it may not accurately reflect an aborted signing, or show that I signed a document that I refused to sign." Perhaps I misinterpreted your intent, but it initially came across to me you were inferring a signer shouldn't trust a Notary to be able to correct mistakes in their own journal. Maybe, just maybe you're the exception to the rule but every single journal I own has at least one mistake in it that has required my crossing out & initialing. I don't like them in there either, but mistakes WILL occur & I've a funny feeling I'll have more in the future.
I also agree this is a preference issue...& I prefer mine. I believe I know how you'll operate on this in the future & you'll most certainly know mine. Nuff said!
| Reply by PAW Notary Services on 1/8/05 10:13pm
Msg #15912
Re: I Also Find Your Comments...
>>> ... it initially came across to me you were inferring a signer shouldn't trust a Notary to be able to correct mistakes in their own journal ... <<<
Unfortunately, that is exactly what I am inferring. I have seen with my own two eyes, some of the worst slip-shoddiness that is imaginable. When I refinanced my own mortgage, the SA that came out was such a disappointment. Not only did he not use a journal, did not put me or my wife under oath, and didn't even follow the laws, to wit: didn't complete the notarization in our presence. And, after looking at the recorded documents, the notarization wasn't done correctly either. So yes, I don't trust some notaries to be be able to correct mistakes in their own journal. Some cannot even follow simple directions, much less know that a mistake was even made. As I said, it is unfortunate that this conversation is even happening, but it's reality. There are too many "unprofessional" notary signing agents.
On the other hand, I can honestly say that there are many, many truly professional notaries public that I trust and am honored to call a colleague. (BTW, if YOU presented YOUR journal to me to sign, I wouldn't hesitate, because your reputation and integrity (though perceived) precedes you. But for some others, I just don't know.)
| Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 1/9/05 6:11am
Msg #15942
And I'd Sign Your Journal...
...in the very beginning OR at the end (even in the middle for that matter), whichever way you'd direct me to. There's not a scintilla of doubt in my mind as to your Notary Public/Signing Agent professionalism.
| Reply by MrEd/Ca on 1/9/05 8:59am
Msg #15949
Re: Acronym & Form Info
Pardon my ignorance, but I am unfamiliar with the acronym 'AIV'. What does it stand for?
(Another acronym further down in this thread that I can't figure out is 'SOI' (& I am assuming it doesn't mean Sit on It!) ? )
And this... 'form you complete at the very beginning'... , can you say more about that. Sounds like a worthwhile step! Thank you.
| Reply by HisHughness on 1/9/05 9:11am
Msg #15951
Re: Acronym & Form Info
MrEd/Ca neighs:
***Pardon my ignorance, but I am unfamiliar with the acronym 'AIV'. What does it stand for?
(Another acronym further down in this thread that I can't figure out is 'SOI' (& I am assuming it doesn't mean Sit on It!) ? )***
AIV = Administered intravenously. What one wants to do with a good stiff shot of whisky after reading one of Brenda's IP posts.
SOI = Subsequent oral injection. What one frequently finds necessary to do with a another good stiff shot of whisky after the intravenous injection was insufficient to allay the effects of one of Brenda's IP posts.
| Reply by PAW Notary Services on 1/10/05 9:36am
Msg #16070
Re: Acronym & Form Info
AIV - Applicant's Identification Verification (some companies title it Affidavit of Identification Verification)
SOI - Statement Of Information (background information to be completed by the borrower(s))
| Reply by Becky on 1/8/05 6:11pm
Msg #15879
Thanks everyone. PAW - always a wealth of information.
| Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 1/8/05 6:30pm
Msg #15882
Another Imperative...
...which I have to consider in the State of Missouri is that effective 09/01/2004 I'm required by law to have the signer(s) sign my journal for all notarial acts I perform. If I were to wait until the end to have the signer(s) sign my journal (after having placed my own Notary signature & seal on the document or documents) and then for whatever reason the signer(s) refused to sign my journal (or leave the signing before it's over as Trudy indicated in her post), I'm cooked! I would've already given the signers what they need & I'm left holding the bag! I'll definitely continue down the path I've been following in this regard.
| Reply by PAW Notary Services on 1/8/05 8:52pm
Msg #15905
Re: Another Imperative...
Don't ask me to sign your journal before the completion, because I would refuse to do so. I have never had anyone refuse to sign my journal. NEVER. So, I consider the likelihood of that happening to be really remote. As for leaving before signing the journal, that would be your fault. The signing isn't complete until the one in charge says so. I'm in charge and I say when the signing is completed. So, even in the Show Me state, I would be in full compliance because my journal would be signed for all acts performed. It wouldn't be signed for acts that were not performed.
| Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 1/8/05 10:10pm
Msg #15911
All It Would Take...
...if there were multiple signers present is for one of them to excuse themselves to go to the bathroom & then decide to leave without my knowledge. I guess in your current state of mind that'd still be "my fault". If I'd already placed my signature & seal on the documents there's nothing in Missouri law stating I have the power to say the notarization is not "completed". My signature & seal are all the signers need & they can walk away any time they want without fear of me holding them hostage because I'm "in charge".
BTW, I've NEVER had anyone refuse to sign my journal either, but there's always a first time.
| Reply by JanetK/CA on 1/8/05 11:25pm
Msg #15918
Slightly different approach
I start out by checking their ID and entering it into my journal. Then I cover the formalities. I may have them begin to fill out any blank forms (e.g. SOI) while I'm working on my journal. Their physical ID card then goes into my journal to mark the page (so I can enter each doc as we sign it) and I don't give it back until I get their signature and fingerprint at the end. I've had people ask for it back, but have never had a problem when I explain (with a smile) why I'm keeping it. (I usually say it's so I don't forget, or something to that effect...) I've also been using the Notary Rotary journal (which I love), so if I end up using another entry line (eg. different document date - required by CA law), which means another signature, it's no problem. Works for me...
| Reply by CaliNotary on 1/9/05 4:04am
Msg #15935
Or.......
An anvil could fall on the head of one of your signers when they excuse themselves to go to the bathroom. Perhaps there could be a wrinkle in the time/space continuum that occurs right in their living room and poof, suddenly they're two hours in the future, when you've already left their house. Maybe a nasty case of spontaneous combustion could occur. After all, there's always a first time!
| Reply by DEEANN DEZERAY on 1/8/05 11:59pm
Msg #15922
HI BECKY,
I LIVE IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA. AND WHAT I HAVE FOUND TO BE VERY HELPFUL IS TO PRINT OUT THE TO & FROM ROUTE ON MAP QUEST. AND THAT WILL HELP YOU IN MORE WAYS THEN ONE. 1> IT WILL SHOW WHERE YOU HAD AN APP & WHEN.
2> WHEN IT'S TAX TIME ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS ADD UP THE TOTAL MILES.
I HAVE MADE SEVERAL OF MY OWN FORMS TO COLLECT INFO. YOU NEED TO PROTECT YOURSELF IN MANY DIFFERENT WAY. YOU CAN CONTACT ME ONLINE AT <[e-mail address]> OR YOU CAN FEEL FREE TO CALL ME ANYTIME <321-480-2039>
I WILL BE GLAD TO GO OVER THEM ALL WITH YOU MORE AT THAT TIME.
GOOD LUCK
DEEANN
| Reply by CarolynCO on 1/9/05 4:53am
Msg #15939
Re: Don't shout
Deeann,
Maybe it's because the wind woke me up and I can't get back to sleep and that's why I'm in a poor mood, but if it hasn't been pointed out to you before, please take your caps lock key off because messages typed in solid caps come across as though you are shouting at everyone.
| Reply by Julie-MI on 1/9/05 9:05am
Msg #15950
Becky
I live in a journal recommended, not manditory state as well.
Since it is not manditory and not specified the way California dictates direction to the notary, I believe you have a lot of latitude as to how you want to keep your journal. I would NOT worry myself over the over-kill laws that some states have and create the paranoia, what if, chicken little syndrome that NNA and some states adhere to.
I don't have the borrowers sign my journal; if the loan funds, their mortgage and signatures will be on record at the county until the end of time. I do not write down their license numbers in my journal--a bit too creepy for me, I don't want to be liable if my journal was to get in the wrong hands. I had a household loan executive offer my $10,000 for the info out of my journals--he wanted to solicite business from them. Of course I declinded, but we had a notary in Michigan scam over a million from her employers, just because one is a notary does not mean they wouldn't share this info with outside sources.
I would not allow a notary to finger print me. It is NOT required in my state, and the notaries are not working with the FBI and CIA as far as I know.
As long as you follow your state's notary laws, you should be covered.
| Reply by Toots on 1/9/05 1:43pm
Msg #15975
Re: Becky
So what do you write in your journal?
| Reply by BrendaTX on 1/9/05 2:23pm
Msg #15980
Re: Becky
Straight from Texas Notary Law - it varies from state to state.
Tex. Gov't. Code Ann. § 406.014 requires that a Notary Public maintain a record book. This record book must be maintained whether or not any fees are charged for your notary public services.
A notary public other than a court clerk notarizing instruments for the court shall keep in a book a record of: (1) the date of each instrument notarized; (2) the date of the notarization; (3) the name of the signer, grantor, or maker; (4) the signer's, grantor's, or maker's residence or alleged residence; (5) whether the signer, grantor, or maker is personally known by the notary public, was identified by an identification card issued by a governmental agency or a passport issued by the United States, or was introduced to the notary public and, if introduced, the name and residence or alleged residence of the individual introducing the signer, grantor, or maker; (6) if the instrument is proved by a witness, the residence of the witness, whether the witness is personally known by the notary public or was introduced to the notary public and, if introduced, the name and residence of the individual introducing the witness; (7) the name and residence of the grantee; (8) if land is conveyed or charged by the instrument, the name of the original grantee and the county where the land is located; and (9) a brief description of the instrument.
Entries in the notary's book are public information. A notary public shall, on payment of all fees, provide a certified copy of any record in the notary public's office to any person requesting the copy. A notary public who administers an oath pursuant to Article 45.019 of the Code of Criminal Procedure is exempt from the requirement of recording that oath in the notary public's record book.
| Reply by Julie-MI on 1/9/05 3:22pm
Msg #15984
Re: Becky
I write the date, borrowers names', addresses, company that hired me, amount I'll be paid.
I have my own abbreviations for the docs that I sign and I put those in for in the event I'm told I missed one, I have a record of all "notarzied" docs at my finger tips. I also put in my mileage and tracking number.
If a borrower refuses to sign, I make the notation as to why they didn't sign. Once I get paid, I delete the efaxed confirmation and I have all of my records neatly at my fingertips.
I should also mention that Michigan's laws say a notarial error will not invalidate a document.
| Reply by Ted_MI on 1/10/05 4:13pm
Msg #16119
Re: Becky
Julie,
So I take it from your post that you don't fingerprint the borrowers either?
| Reply by Julie-MI on 1/12/05 11:39am
Msg #16384
Re: Becky
I absolutely do not fingerprint!!!!
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