Posted by Anonymous on 1/10/05 12:02pm
Msg #16086

Signing Agent Error - a lesson to all

I'm posting this anonymously as I'm embarrassed by this error, but I thought it was worthwhile to post this:

I had my second signing last week -- I am a new signing agent, but I was confident in my ability to perform a loan signing. Both my first and second loan signings were same day calls. Neither agency asked about my experience before giving me my assignment.

I received a call from the signing service today that I had missed a witness signature on the Mortgage and the title company was NOT happy. Now, I had understood that two witness needed to be used at this signing -- I looked through each document for where it was indicated that a witness would be needed, and found one document where a witness signature was specified, and it was not the Mortgage.

Since this was an edocs transaction, I took a look at the mortage document -- there were two blank lines where a witness signature could be placed, but it was not labeled as such. I then called the service and apologized for my error and explained how I had overlooked that. She was very, very gracious and explained how in my state witnesses were needed for the Mortgage. She also told me that the title company agent said "If your agents in the field knew what they were doing then why was this missed??" and she had explained to the title company that every lender is different in what was needed.

My county clerk's office has all of their recorded documents on their website, so I took a look further at recorded mortgages and found that some documents had witnesses, while others did not. Some had the signatures notarized, while others did not. I'm not sure what the difference is.

The upshot of all this is that the document is being sent back to me, I will have to go back to the borrower and have the witness sign, fax the signature page to the title company, then send the documents back to the title company. $25 will be deducted from my fee for shipping, which I completely understand.

I don't know how many experienced agents may make this type of error, but this sure was embarrassing for me!

Reply by Donna_CA on 1/10/05 1:46pm
Msg #16102

First, thanks for sharing your experience. Second, don't let it shake your confidence. I am new also and it could happen to anyone. We're all human and have made or will make mistakes. I'm sure you will probably not make that one again and have helped others to be cautious about this issue as well.

Reply by Sylvia/FL on 1/10/05 2:51pm
Msg #16111

You don't say what state you are in.

A lot of companies erroneously believe that Florida is a witness state as far as mortgages go - it isn't. If the mortgage is acknowledged in front of a notary witnesses are not required.

Which leads me to assume that mortgages will be recorded without notarization as long as there are witnesses. This "could" explain why some mortgages you looked at had witnesses and some didn't and some were notarized and some were not.

If you are not in a witness state, then the errior is not yours, but the company for not informing you that the lender required witnesses.

I do not get witnesses unless requested, and if a mortgage came back to me for witnesses, then if the company did not ask for witnesses, they would be paying me to go back out!

Reply by maureen/nh on 1/10/05 9:05pm
Msg #16153

Now you have me perplexed, are you saying that if the mortgage is witnessed it needn't be notarized in FL--Well that's different

Reply by sue on 1/10/05 9:20pm
Msg #16155

scratching my head down here in PA too. If something is not acknowledged, it doesn't get recorded in our recorder's office. The only exceptions I can think of are notary commissions and armed service discharge papers.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 1/10/05 10:07pm
Msg #16163

According to FL Statutes:

695.03 Acknowledgment and proof; validation of certain acknowledgments; legalization or authentication before foreign officials.--To entitle any instrument concerning real property to be recorded, the execution must be acknowledged by the party executing it, proved by a subscribing witness to it, or legalized or authenticated by a civil-law notary or notary public who affixes her or his official seal, before the officers and in the form and manner following:

(1) WITHIN THIS STATE.--An acknowledgment or proof made within this state may be made before a judge, clerk, or deputy clerk of any court; a United States commissioner or magistrate; or a notary public or civil-law notary of this state, and the certificate of acknowledgment or proof must be under the seal of the court or officer, as the case may be. All affidavits and acknowledgments heretofore made or taken in this manner are hereby validated.

Reply by Anonymous on 1/11/05 1:22pm
Msg #16243

Sylvia,

I was so embarrassed, I forgot to put what state I'm in. LOL! I am in Florida.

The mortgage had the signatures notarized, and the two blank lines were not labeled for witness, and that's what I was looking for.

To top it all off, they sent the documents back to me not by priority overnight, so hopefully I will get them soon, as I have a 6pm signing.

I would have though that since this was so important to the title co. they would have sent the docs priority overnight.

Reply by MI_Notary on 1/10/05 7:04pm
Msg #16147

Check with your County Clerk or Register of Deeds office and see if a witness is required. Michigan use to be a witness state, but has since changed. I generally sign as a witness just for the sake of it, however, it is not necessary. Your state may have recently made changes and the title company may not be aware. It is worth checking into and may save you money in the long run!! ;)

Reply by Toots on 1/10/05 10:53pm
Msg #16166

Are we to conform with the laws in the state the signing took place or the state in which it will be recorded in? If it is the latter, then is it our responsibility to know the laws of other states?

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 1/10/05 11:00pm
Msg #16167

For the notary portion, you need to follow the laws of YOUR state. However, for recording, the deed and/or mortgage must conform to the recording laws of the state in which the document will be recorded. It is not the "responsibility" of the NSA to know the recording laws. Any weird or unusual nuances should be told to you, including witness requirement, if they are needed. However, for witness requirements, it is not difficult to remember. There are only five (5) states that require witnesses (for the stuff we do):

2005 State Witness Requirements
-------------------------------
CT - 2 witnesses, one can be the notary
FL - 2 witnesses, one can be the notary - DEEDS OF CONVEYANCE ONLY, not mortgages
GA - 2 witnesses, one MUST be the notary
LA - 2 witnesses, CANNOT be the notary
SC - 2 witnesses, one can be the notary

NOTES:
1) FL - Mortgages DO NOT require witnesses, DEEDS (QuitClaim, Warranty, etc.) do.
2) VT - Effective 7/1/04, Act 150, Sec. 1.27 V.S.A. §2 was amended to remove witness requirements.
3) Lenders may require witnesses, even though there is no state requirement.

Reply by Toots on 1/10/05 11:13pm
Msg #16171

Thank you PAW. This info is going into my notebook.

Reply by Ted_MI on 1/11/05 9:42pm
Msg #16305

Re: Thanks to PAW seconded n/m

Reply by diane on 1/11/05 1:57am
Msg #16193

anonymous-
do not feel alone for making mistakes. I know very well the gremlins are alive and well. I have been doing mobile loan signings for some years and have a number 'under my belt'. From experience I have learned to look thru the docs (if they are sent to me) for peculiarities and I call the title company often if I have questions.
The laws we need to be familiar with are those in our state and the lender and title company are mainly responsible for getting the legalese right (unless you are a lawyer). the witness issue can be dicey but here in washington we can be a wtiness.
my own procedure after taking an appointment is to call the borrower to confirm a time and date as listed on the confirming order the title company sends me. I also ask directions to the place. while maps are nice, the borrower may wish to change the place or time which may be permissable (the date usually is not). besides being sure the signings are done right (usually the signature must be the same as it is written). there are many little things to look for. one item I got stung on- only the person named on the doc is to sign it. I did have a spouse sign on one and had to go back and redo it. no-no-no.
another one is that of a power of attorney. I got blindsided on that. the docs were for a couple, he was gone, she had the power of attorney. I called the company for how to do it. I was told only 1/2 the procedure but my mistake was not noting who told me and when. the docs were signed and sent back. the manager called me up, chewed me out and sent me back to do it right. a costly lesson hard learned.