Posted by BrendaTX on 7/15/05 4:45pm
Msg #52537

Moral Compass Moment. . . or UPL? Let's hear the verdict:

I was assigned a $100 closing for tonight 8 miles away.

It came out of a FL title co. which has branches in Texas. I just got the package and it is a HELOC.

I have called the TC and told them that I cannot go to the bwrs home to do this, and neither can a lawyer. That's the 'no no' part. NO HOME visits to sign.

In Texas:
You cannot sign a HELOC anywhere but a law office, title company, or a lender branch. IF I WOULD HAVE KNOWN ahead, I probably could have figured something out...but probably would have charged them another $25-50 for the location.

It even states the location provision in the docs. This comes from the Tx Constitution and the whole thing is mucho stupido imho...none the less, it be law.

I'd like the $$$, and the bwrs probably would not mind, but it's flat wrong by the Tx cons.

On the other hand, as the notary, I'd just be taking acks/completing jurats--right? It's not my place to interpret the docs?

BUT IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE DONE LIKE THAT!!!

And, here's the rough part...I have a feeling they are not going to let this go on to the lawyer/title co. They are paying me $100...the tc/lawyer will want $200-$250.

The LO may want me to go on and it and keep the costs down. There may not be another way to get it closed tonight. It's almost 5 pm here.

Now, if I don't do it, is that UPL because I am refusing to go based on my interpretation of the Texas Constitution? I have accepted the job, but now I READ the docs and determine it's NOT CORRECT to go to the bwrs home? See my dilemma?

I know what I'll do, but I want to hear your opinions...just fer fun.

Brenda

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 7/15/05 4:56pm
Msg #52540

Re: Moral Compass Moment. . . or UPL? Let's hear the verdic

I would say that if it is wrong according to the Texas Constitution then no you shouldn't do it. In Texas does the oath you took say something about upholding, adhereing, or following the constitution. If so it would be a total breach of your oath. An oath sworn to is exactly that an oath sworn to. Read them your oath.

wuz dat fun?

Reply by Jon on 7/15/05 5:07pm
Msg #52544

Re: Moral Compass Moment. . . or UPL? Let's hear the verdic

In keeping with the current trend of advice I've been seeing on this board, I say do it. Who cares about the laws of TX, or any other state for that matter. Just make the buck, that's why we became notaries in the first place, isn't it?? Integrity is measured by the amount of money in your bank account at the end of the month, so if you turn this down, you will be sorely lacking in the integrity department. Besides, other people do it and no one will ever know. Also, you will demonstrate to the title co that you will whatever it takes to make the buck, which means they can count on you to make sure the loan gets signed, regardless of the circumstances.

How's that "fer fun"?!?!?!?


The information above is to be regarded or used at your own risk. If you are stupid enough to rely on it, you get what you deserve. Disclaimer not intended to offend anyone(well actually, it is ).

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 7/15/05 5:12pm
Msg #52545

Re: Moral Compass Moment. . . or UPL? Let's hear the verdic

Sorry my smart*** button was off when I replied. Thank you for taking the riens on that one Jon.

Reply by Iris Grayson on 7/15/05 5:21pm
Msg #52546

Just my opinion, but because you already told the TC you can't do it because of what's written in the docs, I'd forego the $100.

If anything goes wrong, it could be your butt on the line. You are a public official, sworn to carry out the law to the best of your knowledge. READING words in a doc "cannot take place anywhere but X, X, or X" is NOT UPL.

You're between a rock and a hard place, but they did NOT give you advance notice, and it is not your problem. They can redraw for tomorrow if the lock doesn't expire on the rate, and perhaps you can arrange to find a friendly law office or title company who will let you use their office. (Does it say BY a lawyer or escrow officer?)

I place no weight on either "moral" or "immoral" to do the signing as is -- it just would not be in keeping with what you know is appropriate in the circumstances. Stupid as we find them to be, the law is the law.

Good luck!

Reply by BrendaTX on 7/15/05 5:48pm
Msg #52551

Thank you ladies but I believe I'll go with Jon!

J/k.

I am not sure who dropped the 'tater on this one, but the bwrs are very very upset. It's a cash out - 10.8% - not AQ.

The problem down the road if I do it, is not for the bwrs, it's for the lender. As I understand the TX MBA website statements, if these rules are not followed the lien may not be any good.

Iris: Notaries do these jobs all the time and they do them in a L office/T Co office/ lender branch. However, consider the welcome I get when I attempt securing the HELOC location...the laughter is pretty loud: Yeah, right...we'll let you use our facility for $0-$50 when we can get $250 for taking the job ourselves.

And, you can't blame them.

Reply by Jon on 7/15/05 5:55pm
Msg #52552

Re: Moral Compass Moment. . . or UPL? Let's hear the verdic

"Thank you ladies but I believe I'll go with Jon!"

I knew I could count on you Brenda!!!!

Reply by IrisWA on 7/15/05 6:20pm
Msg #52557

TX "MBA" <------ ?? n/m

Reply by BrendaTX on 7/15/05 9:08pm
Msg #52584

Re: TX "MBA" <------ ?? Texas Mortgage Bankers n/m

Reply by Anne Arnold on 7/15/05 5:48pm
Msg #52550

Why not meet the borrowers at a title company in the area? I'm sure with as much business as you get, you must have a relationship with a title company that wouldn't mind you coming to their offices.

Just a thought. That way, you're abiding by the Texas law, and still making your fee.

Reply by BrendaTX on 7/15/05 9:07pm
Msg #52583

**I'm sure with as much business as you get, you must have a relationship with a title company that wouldn't mind you coming to their offices.**

Anne, I don't know how long you've been around real estate and title, but I grew up around it. Trust me...in the rural areas I serve, I am a scabber. I take money out of the local title company by facilitating the ability of the national title company to serve their client base. Small title companies that are home owned and operated are not willing to let me (their competition, to a degree) sit in their offices to do for free (no money to them) what they used to make hundreds of dollars for.

My title companies are several hours from me. The one I work in-house for at EOM as needed is in Houston. Two hours away and connected to an extremely large title company. It's very different here.

I am not proud that I have a conflict with the locals, but the national title company is now a reality. I am just part of their network.

Reply by Fay, CA on 7/15/05 6:09pm
Msg #52554

Keep your contacts close to you and your enemies even closer

What info you have brought up has made me think that I better keep cultivating my friendships with several loan officers so I may use their facilities at no cost to me but good will. I refer business to them so its an even trade.

Reply by Teri-PA on 7/15/05 7:22pm
Msg #52566

Do you need to be in the law office , title co, or lender branch or will the front steps/porch do?

Reply by BrendaTX on 7/15/05 9:20pm
Msg #52592

Here's what the Tx HELOC RATE NOTE / SECURITY INSTRUMENTS CONTAIN:

IN ALL CAPS

[DO NOT SIGN IF THERE ARE BLANKS LEFT TO BE COMPLETED IN THIS DOCUMENT. THIS DOCUMENT MUST BE EXECUTED AT THE OFFICE OF THE LENDER, AN ATTORNEY AT LAW, OR A TITLE COMPANY. YOU MUST RECEIVE A COPY OF THIS DOCUMENT AFTER YOU HAVE SIGNED IT.]

>>AT<< not IN, Teri.

Interesting concept.

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 7/15/05 9:42pm
Msg #52593

Just for argument's sake...

So, this is the law in TX.
Suppose I received the same documents because the signer's were vacationing in CA and the docs needed signed. In this case, CA law overrides TX law, right? So I could meet the signers somewhere else, like their hotel.

Reply by BrendaTX on 7/16/05 6:50pm
Msg #52713

Re: Just for argument's sake...

That's a good question. And, Pete also brought the topic up in similar fashion.

If I can find the earlier references I read regarding this I will post it.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 7/16/05 8:47pm
Msg #52736

Re: Just for argument's sake...

Oh no, don't tell me I've got to back the Harris County Jail just because I did a signing for a HELOC for property in Houston, and I did it their son's "summer" home here in Tampa!

Reply by BrendaTX on 7/16/05 10:21pm
Msg #52752

Re: Just for argument's sake...

Yes. Get your toothbrush ready. I'll send your "smokes" to trade for favors with the guards.

Title 7. Banking and Securities
Part 1. Joint Financial Regulatory Agencies’ Interpretations
Chapter 153. Home Equity


http://www.fc.state.tx.us/Home%20Equity/ch153.htm

§153.15. Location of Closing: Section 50(a)(6)(N). An equity loan may be closed only at an office of the lender, an attorney at law, or a title company. The lender is anyone authorized under Section 50(a)(6)(P) that advances funds directly to the owner or is identified as the payee on the note.

(1) An equity loan must be closed at the permanent physical address of the office or branch office of the lender, attorney, or title company. The closing office must be a permanent physical address so that the closing occurs at an authorized physical location other than the homestead.

---------
The interesting part is this is all stated, but what's the penalty? Or is this just an "interpretation" and not law?

Reply by PAW_Fl on 7/16/05 11:12pm
Msg #52754

Re: Just for argument's sake...

Yeah, but that's Texas' interpretation of the law. (I guess it's only an interpretation! ) There is no such interpretation or statute in Florida.

I notice the "interpretation" also doesn't specify that only Texas HELOCs are effected, it simply states that "An equity loan ..." which, by my interpretation, would mean "any" equity loan, regardless. But, again, that only applies in Texas. And, as far as I know, Florida hasn't become a part of Texas yet. (Texas could only annex us for the summer, as Michigan annexes us for the winter. With so many Michigan licensed vehicles here, you'd think we were a suburb of Detroit!)

Send "Luckies".

Reply by Stephen_VA on 7/15/05 8:42pm
Msg #52578

If it is the law, and you know it then you are well within your rights to turn it down. Knowing what is illegal is not UPL, just like ignorance of the law is not a defense.

Reply by Stephen_VA on 7/15/05 8:44pm
Msg #52579

That being, said contact a lawyer and have them advise you. Then you are even more protected.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 7/15/05 8:46pm
Msg #52580

I have not examined the laws or rules for Texas notaries. If I were in your position, I'd read the laws and rules to see if notaries are supposed to refuse to notarize documents if they believe the underlying transaction is unlawful.

Reply by BrendaTX on 7/15/05 9:13pm
Msg #52589

Re: Moral Compass Moment. . . or UPL? Excellent advice...

Gerry. So is the "talk to a lawyer" mention.

Unfortunately, as much as I'd love to just grab the docs and go, they are replete with warnings about the location of the execution of the documents.

This thread was not posted to pass judgment on companies which try to push these through. I posted it because I wanted these answers for posterity. Just for that purpose I am going to put a keyword phrase here: Texas Notary

Reply by HisHughness on 7/15/05 10:56pm
Msg #52615

Gerry_VT notes:

***I have not examined the laws or rules for Texas notaries. If I were in your position, I'd read the laws and rules to see if notaries are supposed to refuse to notarize documents if they believe the underlying transaction is unlawful.***

I hate to be trite, but it certainly applies in this case: Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Certainly it is not an excuse when you have reason to believe, and your profession would indicate you should have >>some<< knowledge of what is lawful and what is not, that the transaction is illegal.

An analagous situation would be where your neighbor is planning a bank robbery, and sends you with two of his cronies to do the dirty deed. You are supposed to drive the getaway car. To make the situation even more analagous, you are certified as a citizen volunteer for the local police force. Is your knowing participation in a criminal act a crime?

If you answered "no," then turn in your Junior G-Man badge (those of you under 60 probably won't understand that reference, but I don't care: My pedagogical proclivities extend only so far).

Reply by Pete/NY on 7/15/05 11:50pm
Msg #52625

Now I have a question

I've learned so much reading all of these threads over the months. This is the first time I even knew something like this existed in any state. How does one go about protecting yourself when a ss or tc calls you for a signing where the bwrs may live here, have a property in another state, or lets say are vacationing, etc, etc. Do we need to review all 50 states laws?? Now that I know about Texas, I'll always remember. But what about particulars in CO or OH or IL or VA or etc., etc. How do you all figure this out? Thanks.

Reply by JanetK/CA on 7/16/05 12:34am
Msg #52635

Re: Now I have a question

You follow the laws of your own state since that is where you conduct business. If we have an out of state package, we can only go by the instructions we receive, for example, if witnesses are required. That's not for us to worry about -- HOWEVER, we should be fully aware of our own state's notary laws, or any others that effect the way we conduct our business, and act accordingly.

Reply by Pete/NY on 7/16/05 8:21am
Msg #52655

Janet

Yes I agree. But now that I'm aware of the Texas law, I would guess that means having to decline if I were to get involved with a Texas property???

Reply by PAW_Fl on 7/16/05 8:33am
Msg #52658

Re: Janet

Pete, et al...

If you are NOT in Texas and are doing a HELOC for TEXAS property, there is nothing in YOUR state laws that says you can't do it in the borrowers home, local eatery, library, law office or football field. You must follow YOUR laws.

The only exception (within our purview) is witnesses required for deeds and mortgages where they will record in another state. And there's only a handful of them to worry about.

It's the same for attorney-only states, such as WV, GA, DE, etc. If you are NOT in that state, you can do a loan signing, per YOUR state statutes.

Reply by Pete/NY on 7/16/05 5:09pm
Msg #52690

PAW

Thanks for clearing that up.

Reply by Teri-PA on 7/16/05 7:35pm
Msg #52720

Re: Janet

And you would not believe how many notaries in PA line the PA/DE line at month end in the local eateries signing DE packages because DE is an attorney state...and at last minute, month end there is no way the title cos can find attornies to close their loans -- so the borrowers cross over into PA