Posted by Nancy in Florida on 7/18/05 10:50pm
Msg #53011

Signing from H@!!, what would you have done?

I had a signing from He!! tonight. When I arrived at the Borrower's home, we did not sit down to sign the docs, instead she took me to her kitchen island and we stood there and that is where she wanted to sign the docs. The island was full of other paperwork and at first I put my docs on the top but then I felt uncomfortable and pushed the other docs to the side and told her as I was doing this that I didn't want her other docs to get mixed up with the loan docs. The first doc I always present is the HUD and I always start with the second page because that is where the closing costs are located and then I move to the 1st page to show the closing costs on the first page and how it adds up. I handed her the doc told her it was the HUD and she immediately gets nasty and says HUD? What is that? I said it is the HUD-I Settlement Statement, it reflects the costs associated with the loan. She then states there aren't any costs and all is to be paid by the Lender. I said okay lets look at it and there were only title charges on the HUD and she got crazy mad at me and starting screaming how this whole thing has been a mess from the beginning and that she will not sign it because she isn't supposed to have any closing costs. She then wants to call her LO and I said of course. She calls him and then she gives the phone to me and he tells me that on the HUD there should be a credit for the closing costs paid by the lender. I looked back at the HUD and on the front of the doc (we hadn't even gotten to that page yet) was the credit from the Lender. I told him that we had just started reviewing the document and that she wanted to call him and we hadn't reviewed the first page yet. I said all should be okay now and gave the phone back to the borrower. She then tells him she is uncomfortable and will not sign unless he is present. Luckily he is only 5 minutes from her house. As I stood there waited for the LO to show, the borrower then starts to cry uncontrolably and her boyfriend comes over and comforts her. I tell them I will leave them alone during this private moment and I will wait outside until the LO arrives. They insist I stay all the while she is balling and can't control herself. After the longest 5 minutes the LO finally arrives. He came in stating that he is only there to observe and will not be a party to the closing. I then start the signing again and she is now ignoring me and acting like I am not ever present and refers all of her questions to the LO. She will no longer look at me or acknowledge that I am in her home. She also read each and every document word for word. (A 20 doc HELOC took 2 hours) I then just start handing her the docs telling her the name of the document and stopping, I didn't even try to explain anything to her because she would only interupt and ask him to explain the doc. I basically became the paper pusher.

The only time she actually spoke to me was when she signed the mortgage, she wanted to cross through the ackknowlegement page because the acknowledgement was only on the top half of the document and the rest was blank and she said that I could write in anything I wanted to and she couldn't do anything about it and wanted to cross through it. I told her she couldn't do that so she then asked if I could give her a copy of the signed document. I told her she had a copy but she wanted one signed because she didn't want ME to alter the document. I told her I didn't have anyway of copying it for her but if she did she was welcome to copy it. She did have a copier and she did make a copy. After I notarized it I returned it to her so she could see what I did actually add to the document and offered her to copy that page as well if she wishes. She declined. She then had a disput with her 1003 and incorrect previous address and didn't want to sign it, the LO convinced her to sign it but she signed it and followed her signature with UCC1-207 (she added this to indicate that she is signing it under protest) I don't know if the Lender to TC will kick it back but I am enclosing a note to the TC that the LO was present and allowed her to sign in that manner.

This was the first time a borrower was this done right nasty to me, many times I have had borrowers who were upset by how the process of the loan had gone and they might have screamed and yelled but always say that they are not mad at me and understood my role in the process. I tried explaining it to her but she was so nasty from the onset she didn't want me there at all. Of course this was the first loan that had a notary survey in it for the borrower to complete and return. I am sure she will be very negative and this is a client that I have just started doing work for and I have done about 5 or 6 closings to date and all have gone well. What could I have done differently? Should I send a note or call the TC that hired me and explain what happened at the signing? I would hate to lose business because of one very nasty crazy lady.

Reply by Ernest_CT on 7/18/05 10:56pm
Msg #53013

When you send the docs, send a POLITE note. n/m

Reply by Kimberly-IN on 7/18/05 11:00pm
Msg #53014

In a situation like that, there isn't one thing you could have done...sounds like one of those people who you just can't make happy. Keeping your cool is about all you can do in times like that. It's a good thing the LO was there, so he/she can back you up. I would call the signing company, for sure, and let them know what happened. Chances are they have dealt with that type time and time again. I ALWAYS let the signing co. know when the borrower is hostile....they want to know. You did fine though, I've been in this since 95 and couldn't tell you how many times I've been treated like crap because I'm the closer.

Reply by Nancy in Florida on 7/18/05 11:18pm
Msg #53017

Thanks Kimberly, my only problem is that I don't think the LO will back me up. She called him every name in the book and accused him of screwing this loan up from the beginning. She didn't call him in front of me, she took her phone and went into her bedroom and only came out when he wanted to talk to me. I have no idea what she told him privately but I am sure she called me every name in the book and said she didn't trust me. I could just tell that he thought he had to be inconvenienced for an incompentent Notary/SA. ( I have been doing loan closings for too many years to count but I have only been working as an IC for the past 5 months.) I am used to doing them in a Law Office setting and I have had many nasty borrowers but it is different when you are in their home and they are hostile. Of course when the LO arrives the borrower couldn't have been nicer to him and was hanging on his every work.

I felt hostility from all of them, the LO was a friend of her boyfriend so I didn't stand a chance. My only saving grace is that the docs are signed correctly, I was professional, stayed calm and was polite and respectful. This Lender is local and is a regular customer of the TC who gave me this assignment, I am afraid he could request that I not be assigned as a Notary/SA for them any longer but I have done closings with other LO's from this Lender who were also present at the closings and they really liked my work so I guess time will tell.

Reply by Wa notary on 7/19/05 12:00am
Msg #53024

Well, then, I guess that you really have nothing to worry about! I think that you went above and beyond, and if they decide not to use you, it is definately their loss!! I, for one, am proud of you.... Now you need to keep your head up, and remember, there are always those kind of people around. Unfortunately, we will cross paths with them from time to time.........
On to the next positive experience!!!
P.S. And to answer the ?, "what would you have done".... I just hope that I would have the composure that you displayed!!!!!!

Reply by TitleGalCA on 7/18/05 11:53pm
Msg #53021

***My only saving grace is that the docs are signed correctly, I was professional, stayed calm and was polite and respectful. ***

Kimberly, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. From your first post, these were folks that had some serious problems. We are put in front of people in all walks of life and different in their circumstances... and sometimes these situations are not happy or good - usually definining "money" situations.

I think you did FINE, better, you did great. Take any and all comments to your post with a HUGE grain of salt, anyone replying to your post were NOT in the same position as you and did not deal with the tears, the bad vibes, the distrust, etc. Sometimes answers to posts, like yours, on this board are somewhat anal (ahem).

When you are thrust into difficult situations in signings, just remember that you are only a small part in the whole picture. You have no idea what circumstances you are being drawn into when you are called to close.

Shake it off, forget the comment that ***you can't make them happy*** (like ANYBODY could?) and know that the borrowers situation was not only not your fault, but there wasn't a flippin thing you could do, other than be a professional. And forget the polite "note", ridiculous.

I think you did great. Congrats on a difficult signing, and DO NOT take it personally, it wasn't meant towards you. Shake it off, kiddo.

I hope you get paid on time!!

Reply by TitleGalCA on 7/18/05 11:59pm
Msg #53022

Whoopsie...make that addressed to Nancy...n/m

Reply by Ernest_CT on 7/19/05 12:05am
Msg #53025

Anyone else want to comment on ...

... the idea of sending a note with the docs?

I am offended that the concept was dismissed as "ridiculous".

Reply by TitleGalCA on 7/19/05 12:23am
Msg #53035

Please...

Ernest,

This lady has an impossible task. It was ridiculous! Who could have done better? Better to give her kudos for what she did do, rather than suggest there was something MORE she could do, to fix something that she had nothing to do with in the first place.

Reply by Ernest_CT on 7/19/05 12:38am
Msg #53039

I fear the suggestion was misunderstood.

The lady did an excellant job! She kept her cool and was professional. I see nothing at all for which she can be faulted.

The note could express concern for the borrower, and that she clearly was under a lot of stress. Perhaps a warning about the borrower cancelling. Certainly it should state that the loan officer was called and came to the signing. Express regret that the borrower wasted the loan officer's time. Don't say the borrower was an elbow. The reader will get the idea.

Can I come up with good wording now?r Probably not. After a good night's sleep, probably.

Reply by CarolynCO on 7/19/05 9:31am
Msg #53085

Re: I fear the suggestion was misunderstood.

For my first reverse, I inserted a note explaining that the LO was present and took control of the signing. I took advantage of the situation and learned a lot from that signing. The company continues to call for me to handle their reverses -- and the same LO is always present. After the first signing, he now lets me handle the signings and only answers specific questions regarding figures, etc.

For out-of-the-ordinary signing situations, I do insert a note in the package.

Reply by Bob-Chicago on 7/19/05 12:21am
Msg #53033

Just a tip

Not much you can do with that kind of whack job, but when you present a HUD,( I call it a "settlement statement" to bwr) I start with page 1 if a 2 pager.
Shows loan amnt, payoff of old mtg, settlement costs and what they are getting back of paying. Also has credits, which might have gotten you off on a better foot.
I think including a note with docs would be a good idea. A phone call to whoever hired you would also be advisable.
You will get some of these types. When you do , just get through it as best as you can. Keep thinking that you will be home or with someone nice in a hour, and they will be the exit end of the digestive system for the rest of their miserable life. You will find that thinking this thought helps.

Reply by MB/CA on 7/19/05 9:15am
Msg #53078

Re: Just a tip

Something tells me that if you had been a male notary you wouldn't have had this much trouble! You were in a no win situation when you walked through the door!

Reply by JanetK/CA on 7/19/05 4:07pm
Msg #53181

Re: Just a tip

You pretty much said what I was thinking. I'd probably at least consider adding a note to the package and might also call. I don't know that anyone could have had a different outcome with this person (calling her a "lady" is probably giving her too much credit!), but sometimes using industry jargon can touch a nerve with some people - especially if they're already on the edge. I, too, always call the HUD a "settlement statement". We get so used to our own terms that it's easy to forget that most people don't know what they mean. I also try to use a little humor - or whatever I can come up with - to put people at ease before I start. Sometimes it helps. Probably wouldn't have made much of a difference in this case, if at all. I'm clutching at straws here, but since Nancy directly asked about what could have been done differently, I thought I'd give it a try.

For what it's worth, Nancy, other people ( e.g. the LO, etc.) probably can tell what a "whack job" this person is, too.

Reply by CarolynCO on 7/19/05 9:39am
Msg #53088

**she wanted to cross through the ackknowlegement page because the acknowledgement was only on the top half of the document and the rest was blank and she said that I could write in anything I wanted to and she couldn't do anything about it and wanted to cross through it. I told her she couldn't do that so she then asked if I could give her a copy of the signed document. I told her she had a copy but she wanted one signed because she didn't want ME to alter the document.**

As I go through the loan package with the Borrower(s), whenever there is a large-size gap, I have the Borrower(s) draw a single diagonal line throught the gap and initial. This is a common law firm practice so nothing can be inserted into the gap later without the signing party(ies) knowledge.

Reply by BrendaTX on 7/19/05 6:06pm
Msg #53211

**As I go through the loan package with the Borrower(s), whenever there is a large-size gap, I have the Borrower(s) draw a single diagonal line throught the gap and initial. This is a common law firm practice so nothing can be inserted into the gap later without the signing party(ies) knowledge. **

Some borrowers ask me if they can do this. I say "No. You are each to draw a stick figure with representing yourself or nothing."

On a side note...anyone want to place wages on whether or not this thread will develop into a UPL thread?

Let's hope not. It's important for posterity to realize that notaries cannot practice law, but, a solution like this never occurred to me in all the signings where bwrs expressed concerns over the blank space. Finally, a bwr asked to do it, I said SURE. I wished I had known about this solution of Carolyn's early on. I probably will not do it in my own practices until another situation comes up where the bwr expresses concern...but it's a good way to relieve their minds when they ask.


ps...I lied about the stick figures. I tell them to draw a picture of my dog and show them my cell phone with her picture on it.