Posted by erin_CenCal on 6/3/05 8:04pm
Msg #42188

2 1/2 Hours for HELOC??

I just returned from a very difficult signing in which the borrower insisted on signing each page of her copies and having me notarize her copies as well. The signing took 2.5 hours! The title company did not include copies of a few documents, so we had to wait until they could fax us a copy before she would sign. I could tell this was not going to be an easy one when I asked for her I.D. and she was offended that I didn't trust her. It only got worse from there. I am drained now, and very frustrated. I am wondering if anyone else has experienced a signing where they insist on signing 2 copies of everything and even wanting their copies notarized. It figures that the ones who pay the worst are usually the hardest. Now I have to start faxing the several documents that the SS requires. My question is, would it be unfair of me to ask for more money in this situation? I feel like I did the work for two signings, not one. I usually never do signings for such a small fee, but thought I'd give them another try. Every one I've had has been a mess so I think this is the last one for me.

I understand that even if I'm technically entitled to more money, there's a good chance that I may not get it since I already agreed to their low fee. Just wondering if anyone out there has any thoughts for me before I ask.

Reply by The Rose/IN on 6/3/05 8:09pm
Msg #42191

I just got back from one that the borrower wanted this same thing their copy signed and notarized i did not have to wait for more docs. This is a first in 3years.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/3/05 8:23pm
Msg #42195

Erin_CenCal, exhausted, complains:

***I just returned from a very difficult signing in which the borrower insisted on signing each page of her copies and having me notarize her copies as well.***

When the borrower signed and you notarized a second set of documents, you created a second set of originals. In some cases, this can be a problem: One such case is often a will. Creating a second recordable deed may pose a problem, though I am not so well versed in real estate law that I can point to such an instance.

A certain level of unforeseen and uncontrollable contingencies is built into my fee. Today, for example, I had to chase down a UPS truck to retrieve my documents that the driver refused to leave with the leasing office (gimme FedEx any day!). When it reaches a certain level -- an unmentioned piggyback loan, for example -- my fee become renogotiable. I seek to do that before beginning. If for some reason I can't, I continue, the seek to renegotiate later.

In this case, the unforeseen contingency was quite controllable. I would have called the SS, explained the situation, and asked if they would supplement my fee. If not, then I would have left the matter up to the borrower: Either we proceeded to do what I was hired to do, which was notarize one set of documents, or I go home. I also would have made it plain to the borrower that they could, upon request, obtain a copy of the fully executed documents, and that indeed they should ask for them.

Reply by erin_CenCal on 6/3/05 8:41pm
Msg #42200

Thank you Hugh for your reply. You are absolutely right that I should have renogotiated my fee while at her house. While in the situation, I didn't want to do anything that would upset her anymore. That's my fault and it looks like I'm going to learn a lot from this one. I was not aware of the possible repercussions of notarizing 2 copies. When she first asked me to notarize her copy I said no, but then realized I did have a reason. (If nothing else it should have been because I was not getting paid to do that!) So thank you for information. I just hope it doesn't cause more problems later.

I did make it clear to her that she could request copies of the signed documents, as did the a rep. from title and her lender. She was aware of her RTC as well, she just would not sign a thing without having another copy, right in front of her, signed exactly the same way. She was an ex RE broker and wanted to do everything "by the book", except what I needed her to do.

Reply by Carol_KY on 6/3/05 10:14pm
Msg #42217

I feel your pain on this one. On Tuesday I had 4 closings. One of them was with a Bank mortgage officer who was using a different company for her home equity and the last one I did was for a lawyer. I felt like I should have gotten paid extra just to listen to the complaints they had about the process. The loan officer wouldn't stop taking phone calls during the closing which was dragging out the process and she insisted on reading all of the fine print. The lawyer kept complaining about the way he had to sign his name and woudn't date the documents which meant I had to hand them back to him and he started putting wrong dates on it. They should advise us when these clients are on our appointment lists so we can allow more than extra time.

Reply by Julie-MI on 6/3/05 10:20pm
Msg #42220

The loan numbers are on the note and mortage or DOT. I used to be of the school that there shouldn't be two notes signed, but the reality is that any abstractor with a brain would realize the duplicate loan numbers. Additionally, the lender is only reporting one loan on the property, not two or more.

I would have told her I had another appointment and she could request signed copies from the title company or lender.

That woman was a pita plain and simple and if she was so by the book because she was a former broker, she would have known that it was not necessary to sign and notarize her copies. That woman knew nothing but was pretending she did.

Reply by Nancy in Florida on 6/3/05 8:49pm
Msg #42201

I am uncomfortable when the Lender/TC includes multiple copies of the mortgage and note. When I worked for Lenders it was always a rule that if we had multiple Notes and Mortgages signed there was ONE original and the other signed copies were stamped "Certified True Copy of the Original". Especially the Mortgage is a concern because what if two of the "original" mortgages (they all become originals when they are signed and notarized.) are both recorded, it would then look as if the borrower had two liens in the same amount owed to the same lender.

I agree with Huge notarizing the borrower's documents could potentially be a problem. I have also had people give me a hard time about ID. I always give them senarios about how people can be scamed. My favorite is to tell them the story that happened years ago in my County. It was back when TC's didn't ask for ID. Well a husband and wife refi'd their home. Only to find out that it was the husband and his girlfriend and he took off with the girlfriend and the money and left his wife high and dry with a huge mortgage payment!

Reply by Anne_SoCA on 6/3/05 9:24pm
Msg #42204

I would feel uncomfortable notarizing two sets of the same documents. In a situation like this, can you tell the borrower that you are only authorized to notarize the lender's copies?

It just seems like it isn't a good idea to have a second set of notarized loan documents around. Couldn't the borrower just sign them if they really want to and we could not notarize them?

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/3/05 9:51pm
Msg #42214

You can record as many "copies" or "originals" of the mortgage you want, it won't create any additional liens, but certainly may cause any title investigation to go haywire until it is sorted out. The mortgage repeats the loan conditions, including the date of the note, amount, lender, etc. and would be identical in every fashion so it could be ascertained to be merely a copy.

However, even though I have been told the same holds true for the note, I don't see that happening. If there are two original notes (signed, sealed and delivered) and two original mortgages, then there certainly would appear to be two liens, albeit identical in nature, on the property. However, if there is only one note, and two mortgages reflecting back to just the one note, then there is no ambiguity. Actually, many notes have "Sign Original Only" on the signature page. If a lender requests a "copy" to be signed, I always suggest that to the signers that they may want to differentiate the original and the copy by placing the word "COPY" next to their signature on the "copy".

Reply by Cheryl_HI on 6/4/05 12:23am
Msg #42242

Re: Signing Two Notes

Isn't there something about a note being a "negotiable" instrument and having more than one "original" note (not designated copy as you suggested) mean a problem. Don't borrowers get the note back after the loan has been satisfied?

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/4/05 7:22am
Msg #42259

Re: Signing Two Notes

Most notes that are used in real property liens, such as we deal with, are negotiable instruments. And, yes, having more than one "original" may create problems, even when the loan number is conspicuously placed on the instrument.

That basically was the thrust of my previous posts. More than one "original" note is much more problematic than multiple mortgages or DOTs which all reference the same note.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/4/05 9:20am
Msg #42274

Signing Two Notes: for PAW

PAW points out:

***Most notes that are used in real property liens, such as we deal with, are negotiable instruments. And, yes, having more than one "original" may create problems***

PAW makes a significant and sobering point. A second copy of the note in the wrong hands could be sold to a third party, who could then demand payment.

In all of this discussion, I've begun to ponder: Reverse mortgages come with two notes and two DOTs, one copy in favor of the lender and one copy in favor of HUD. I've always assumed they are identical except for the titles and the beneficiaries, but I've never read one all the way through to compare. What's your take on that, PAW?

Incidentally, this kind of discussion is why I love this board. It's what it should be about, training people to be better notaries, not training them how to become notaries.

Reply by Joan-OH on 6/3/05 9:50pm
Msg #42213

You are in CA & can charge $10 per notarization. I would have told the borrower that you were hired to notarize one set of docs and if they wanted their set notarized, you cannot legally refuse them, but you have to charge them the same as everyone else @ $10 a stamp. Bet that would have stopped them. Why should the signing company pay you to do something they did not hire you to do?

Keep the copies in your briefcase. If they want to compare let them do it, but do not start the signing until they get it out of their system. Insist that only one set goes on the table at a time.

Sounds like the borrower controlled the signing, but I would guess this will not happen to you again. Things like this only happen once and then you learn. So, chalk it up to a learning experience and keep better control the next time.

Joan-OH

Reply by hcampers/fl on 6/3/05 10:19pm
Msg #42219

My question is when notarizing could you have written in "Copy"? Maybe that wouldn't be right but then again having 2 copies of all documents ain't so great either.

Reply by Sunny/CA on 6/3/05 10:33pm
Msg #42221

I agree, should tell her, the lenders pays for one set, SHE would have to pay for the second set of notarized docs. OR she can request a signed set from the borrower which wil be a copy of the orgingal set.

Reply by erin_CenCal on 6/3/05 11:16pm
Msg #42232

Wow! If only I could turn back the clock! I'm obviously kicking myself right now for doing what I did, although at the time I didn't know what else to do. I did not feel comfortable with the situation at all, but I didn't have an answer for why I couldn't do it. As far as her running the show, I asked her several times to put her copies away, but she refused and wanted to compare every page. There's only so much you can do, short of a wrestling match. I appreciate all of the feedback you gave me and you all helped me put this in perspective. I am praying that there will not be any negative effects from having 2 notarized copies. However, can I really stop her from signing her copies? Just wondering how others have dealt with this. Either way, I have definately learned a huge lesson here. Thanks for all of your feedback!

Reply by Judith_VA on 6/4/05 6:59am
Msg #42258

Learning from other people's mistakes

erin_CenCal, just think of how many notaries that you have helped! I love learning from other peoples' experiences. This is exactly why I am on this board everyday. It is a fountain of information - occassional soap opera moments and all! I love this business! It is never a dull moment!

Reply by HisHughness on 6/3/05 10:45pm
Msg #42223

Joan-OH puts on her wizards conical hat, and suggests:

***You are in CA & can charge $10 per notarization. I would have told the borrower that you were hired to notarize one set of docs and if they wanted their set notarized, you cannot legally refuse them, but you have to charge them the same as everyone else @ $10 a stamp.***

What a fabulous, simple, obvious solution to something I made far too difficult! Are you married, Joan? Do you own a liquor store?