Posted by Forest Sisemore on 6/17/05 9:42pm
Msg #45721

Confessions of a $50 Signing Agent

OK I confess. I used to do loan signings for $50. But that was when i was just starting out. I raised my fee to $65 after doing a few. When I got more experience under my belt I raised my fee to $75 for ss work. I charge more for TC's but they are few & far between. What I've noticed is that lately, in particular this year, fees have gone down to the point of being ridiculous. Just read the posts. I get calls from more & more SS's that feel they can get away with paying less than $50. This has got to stop.

I hear that TC's are now expecting to pay less to SS's and I'm afraid this is true. They want to keep more profit in house as business is down from the recent boom. We're getting squeezed and I don't like it. It sucks. Over the years I've also noticed a prolifferation of no pay/slow pay SS's. I've got over $3000 in accounts recievable as a result. I'm sick & tired of Dead Beat companies pimping out notaries like hoars. This is not what I signed up for & I wonder what the future holds for what was once considered a noble & respectable office. My question is: What, if anything, can we do about it? Please feel free to offer any encouraging & positive feedback, even feedback with a biting edge. Keep it real. I want to last in this profession and it is a profession. If you feel the same please comment. My hope is that enough of us will be able to agree on something that will make a difference.. Thanks for letting me rant.

Reply by CAtitlegal on 6/17/05 10:04pm
Msg #45726

Forest, you hit a nerve with me.

Not long ago, I posted (#43678) a comment about a possible fix to this problem. It is based on sound biz principles. I asked for comments and was disappointed with them. In a nutshell here's what I said:

***"The secondary contract is thru the SS and the SA. That is who the SA should go after if they haven’t been paid. It blows my mind that the SA ‘hopes’ to be paid in a timely manner, or has the weird ‘trust’ that it will happen. Most successful businesses I know of make sure they get payment via a contract or agreement for services rendered.

So…what is wrong with SA’s, once they get their confirmation of a signing, fax back a simple agreement that the SS has to sign…like ‘SS agrees to pay SA with X days of loan closing’. Why wouldn’t this arrangement work, and hold SS ‘feet to the fire’ to pay their notaries? What would happen if we ALL had this type of agreement, or we wouldn’t ‘sign ‘em up’? Just seems like good business to me.

Would love comments – this payment issue is a pet peeve of mine since I’ve started doing this now for profit, instead of just as an accommodation to my employer. Tell me why it couldn’t work to solve the problem of unpaid notaries?"***

Again, based on simple principles of business contracts. I'm absolutely willing to try this, but wanted the more seasoned, self-emplyed SA's to comment. The board responses I got was "'status quo' and don't suggest we don't know how to do our business" which to me meant that SA's will tolerate late or non payment.

What I don't get is that the SS is paid 5 to 7 days after close of escrow. Why hold the funds? Are they in trouble? makes no sense to me.

When I proposed this idea on the board as a simple fix, and invited comments, was told that I can do things my way...other independents would do things their way (duh). It was just a suggestion and looking for comments as part of this community. Please tell me yours. I'm not trying to change the industry, just wondering why no one else thought of this?

Regards!!

Susan

Reply by Jon on 6/18/05 12:22pm
Msg #45842

Just a couple comments.

1. In my meager 8 yrs of experience, it is very difficult to get any SS to bow to your terms. Why, because there are a million more notaries waiting for the job who are willing to bow to the SS terms, not to mention undercut you by $10 to get the job.

2. A common misconception is that all SS services get paid 5 to 7 days after funding. The truth is, many of the companies with contracts to do a large volume of signings DON"T get paid that quickly. Many times there is a payment agreement for once or twice a month. It is easier for them to cut one check as opposed to cutting 1000 or more depending on the company. I'm not giving them excuses or even saying that the reasoning is right, just that these are some of the facts and there are enough people who are willing to accept these facts the way they are, so the SS don't need to change.

Reply by CAtitlegal on 6/18/05 12:42pm
Msg #45846

thank you Jon

That's exactly the info I was looking for - the 'why' part. It's not about bowing to my terms, just trying think thru a way to avoid the problem in the first place.

Reply by ItsMe123 on 6/17/05 10:15pm
Msg #45728

Find out what the laws regarding work performed in your state and enforce them. Send a demand for payment with the intent to sue. Send with it a blank copy of the documents that will go to the court. If they don't respond, serve them and sue them. Usually a copy of the law, a letter of intent to sue and a copy of what you WILL file works. In Michigan it is a criminal misdemeanor to not pay one for work performed. If someone tries to not pay me, I let them know as I include the exact code of the law. I have only had to go as far as serve one company---check came 3 days later with the court costs as at that point that is all I would accept. I told them when they thought they wouldn't pay the court costs I had already paid that if I had to go as far as serve them it was their burden to explain why it went to that extent before they sent a check. I told them if they didn't pay all the costs then they can personally appear and claim they mailed a check. With the history of my invoicing, noone was going to believe them and I let them know it.

I have not one signing, not one, that I have not been paid for. Be serious about receiveables and let them know you are. I imagine the bulk of your 3000.00 is from a collection of a few companies. Let them know they will be served. No more Mr. Nice Guy--no more invoices sent, no more phone calls, just have them served. Don't threaten, Act. Advise them in your intent to sue that they will be traveling to your area as the work occured there. Include what I mentioned. You will get paid. I have collected from the worse scum out there---some of you wouldn't believe who I have forcefully extracted payment from.

Reply by ItsMe123 on 6/17/05 10:20pm
Msg #45729

Abbove post references getting paid only n/m

Reply by CAtitlegal on 6/17/05 10:26pm
Msg #45730

And you are able to do this by virture of...the confirmation? Your invoice as proof of work performed? Your line item in your journal? All of the above? Not trying to stir the pot, it's good to know that you've been able to collect (and I hope also with fees for trying to collect) just looking for the mechanics in your efforts.

Reply by ItsMe123 on 6/17/05 10:47pm
Msg #45735

Confirmation and the notarized deed of trust that you can get from the register's office (most will even fax it to you with just a phone call) builds all I need. I have proof I was hired for so many dollars and I have proof I performed the work on the said day. Cut and Dry.

Reply by Les/CO on 6/18/05 11:34am
Msg #45834

Question to ItsMe123

So suppose you win in small claims court ?(assuming you can get the other party 'served' in another state) What do you do with the $150 'out of state' judgement? (from past experience one can't 'attach' the bank account in one state, with a judgement from a different state.) I live in Colorado, and I can't afford go to Small Claims court in CA or wherever the SS in located. Now IF the SS in in Colorado, I'm set. For this interstate stuff I think "mail fraud" may be the way to go. There are a bunch of low life's that have seen the inside of some of our nicest jails because of mail fraud.
Now how do we get the authorities to listen to us?`

Reply by Ernest_CT on 6/17/05 10:51pm
Msg #45737

Can you be just a little more specific, please?

Most companies have us sign a contract. Frequently there is a clause that says (I'm paraphrasing here, please bear with me!) "The exclusive venue for legal action is East Overshoe County, Pennsyltucky." Doesn't that have an effect on our ability to file in our home jurisdiction? The companies that require a contract to be signed before they give us work are usually serious about not giving us even one signing before we fax the contract to them. Please don't tell us not to sign the contract unless you have a great way around it!

Can we do our own research into our states' laws and avoid an attorney completely? If so, where would you suggest that we begin? It has been my experience that beginning to use the law to collect a debt without proper preparation is worse than not trying to collect the debt at all. I've found collection agencies to be useless (at least so far!). For the amounts we need to collect, most attornies want us to pay their fee up front and they don't promise we'll be be able to collect.

Perhaps the NSAs can cooperate and help each other collect debts. Suggestions, anyone?

Reply by ItsMe123 on 6/17/05 10:58pm
Msg #45742

I file my own in small claims--easy as pie-

Seriously how many companies that don't pay actually have a contract in place. The companies that have contracts are the ones that pay. Say a contract does exist. The only way a court is going to see the contract is if someone brings it to court. I am not going to bring it, are they really going to come from PA to contest the jurisdiction of the the court? I don't think so. Are they going to pay their attorney to file a motion contesting venue? If so the attorney will advise payment. Regardless if they really want to get in the contract crap, the contract has a pay provision so all around it is a loss for them. It works.

Reply by CAtitlegal on 6/17/05 11:04pm
Msg #45746

Not what I mean...

the contract is between SA (first) then SS. SA says, you pay me by X time after close of escrow. If SS doesn't sign, SA doesn't accept job.

Not like the contract SS proposes to their SA's (those are FINE, in my opinion, if willing to accept).

It's those last minute jobs where there's NO agreement!

Reply by ItsMe123 on 6/17/05 11:19pm
Msg #45755

Great idea-but you don't need it--why would it help

you don't need that--you have a request to perform work for said amount (confirmation) and proof of work prformed (copy of DOT) you don't need it and they wouldn't do it----Plain out you have all you need for the court.

Reply by CAtitlegal on 6/17/05 11:01pm
Msg #45744

Re: Can you be just a little more specific, please?

This is my plea Ernest. Lets help each other. No pride of authorship...just throwing out ideas. I don't think attorney's are necessary, but I'm not one, so no expert here. Just a simple one page commitment to pay upon close - no brain surgery. Again, in my (albeit simple) mind, it's a contract, short but sweet. Contracts/agreements hold in small claims court for debts less than $1500 in CA.

Again...I'm throwing out ideas for a (pet peeve) and think if we get together on basic principles of business, we can help each other.

Not trying to change the world, the industry...I just don't get this non-payment thing, and there's power in numbers IMHO.

Reply by Forest Sisemore on 6/17/05 11:10pm
Msg #45749

Re: Can you be just a little more specific, please?

I for one like your idea Susan. Thank you! I'm gonna draft some language to that effect tomorrow. I really appreciate your sharing. Seems to me a very straight forward reasonable thing to do. You guys (& gals) are a great source of ideas. Keep it up..

Reply by CAtitlegal on 6/17/05 11:25pm
Msg #45758

Forest...email me

I've already started a rough draft....manana tho. I'm wiped tonight and I don't think Im expressing myself well enough on the board. To me it's simple and avoids those 'ho' situations you mentioned, as I referred to as last minute signings. I'm looking to provide quality work as a professional and don't care to provide it to lesser companies. Just my personal philosophy

Thank you for the original post!

Reply by ItsMe123 on 6/17/05 11:15pm
Msg #45752

think this--I AM GOING TO GET PAID FOR THE WORK I DO

Regarding the Fair Debt Collection Act. If you hire someone to collect your debt--they are a collector and have much higher standards to follow with collection. If you are owed--you are a creditor. They are day and night. A judge sitting on the bench listening to your story of work and how you want your 150.00 isn't going to be concerned abouut Fair Collections. He/She is going to see someone who acted in good faith and got burned. I don't look for reasons why I can't do something, I do it. For all the money it is going to cost some pissant SS to look at venue and fair collections....shoot they are just going to mail the money and move on. Business is risk to benefit and ROI. It is in their favor on both principles to mail a check and that's what you want. They aren't going to bitch to the government and the courts about unfair treatment--that is expensive---you have to use a hired gun and they cost way more than the 150.00 or whatever you are owed. A judge wants to move on to the next case in his docket--the next shlup who has a small money claim. Go listen for a day at small claims court. Watch and see if a defendant wins. They don't unless they have a darn good provable reason on paper why they don't have to pay. You will get paid. Just decide in your head and stick to your thought the following.

I AM GOING TO GET PAID FOR WORK I DID. NOT GETTING PAID 100% UNACCEPTABLE. I AM NOT GOING TO TOLERATE IT AND I AM GOING TO LET YOU KNOW IT IF IT IS THE LAST THING I DO. NO MORE. WHATEVER IT TAKES, NO MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply by CAtitlegal on 6/17/05 11:18pm
Msg #45754

Re: think this--I AM GOING TO GET PAID FOR THE WORK I DO

okay. But what do you show the judge?

Reply by ItsMe123 on 6/17/05 11:22pm
Msg #45756

Show the confirmation and a copy of DOT---

The confirmation is a request to perform work and the copy of the notarized DOT is prove that the work was performed. It is cut and dry

Reply by CAtitlegal on 6/17/05 11:27pm
Msg #45760

Re: Show the confirmation and a copy of DOT---

Good - thanks, that's what I was looking for as direction. You sure have a creative, smart way of getting paid - I admire that.

Reply by BrendaTX on 6/17/05 11:28pm
Msg #45761

ItsMe123 is a smart cookie...CAtitlegal nm

Reply by CAtitlegal on 6/17/05 11:48pm
Msg #45768

Re: ItsMe123 is a smart cookie...CAtitlegal nm

As a business person, in order to protect your services rendered, an agreement is necessary. For Notary demands in straightforward escrow/re transaction, when NSA is hired as NSA (NOT a Signing Service) payment is not an issue, they get paid on close of escrow. When an SS is hired, they then hire a subcontractor, generally the NSA who advertises on boards like this.

How does that NSA subcontractor protect him/herself? The confirmation, yes. The DOT, yes (as It's me pointed out). But what happens when the SS doesn't pay in 60-90-120 days??? If the NSA has a simple agreement with the SS to pay in a certain time frame (pick 10 days from close of escrow) WHY does SS not pay notary from the funds they collected? There's no reason. So, NSA's have to post on boards about payment issues. Seems like it could be averted.

It's a simple proposal on my part. I've invited comments and appreciate them. In my mind, the smart cookie protects him/herself in all business transactions, whether as a subcontractor or the primary NSA.

BTW, I wrote to you about this a few days ago but it was returned for "full mailbox". You're a busy lady, and for good reason!

Reply by BrendaTX on 6/18/05 12:37pm
Msg #45845

Re: ItsMe123 is a smart cookie...CAtitlegal nm

Thanks for letting me know about the mailbox full. I will dump my emails more regularly. Thanks.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/18/05 8:08am
Msg #45812

Re: Show the confirmation and a copy of DOT---

You mean you keep a copy of the signed and notarized DOT for your records? I personally find that highly unethical and may be illegal. This is the purpose of a journal. You document what you did. (Ref: Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries, 2001, pg 42)

Reply by Ernest_CT on 6/18/05 5:08pm
Msg #45891

I think what she meant was ...

... only if you are having a severe problem collecting then go to the place where the deed is recorded and get an official copy, with the book number and page. I agree that keeping a copy certainly falls under "unethical", and (just my guess) likely to be illegal as well. By the time we have decided that we need to take a final step before beginning the full legal process of obtaining a judgment, the deed should have been recorded.

Reply by ItsMe123 on 6/18/05 5:19pm
Msg #45895

I don't keep copy of DOT-I get a copy of the recorded DOTn/m

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/18/05 9:30pm
Msg #45962

Whew, that's good to hear.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/18/05 11:35am
Msg #45835

ItsMe123 reports:

***In Michigan it is a criminal misdemeanor to not pay one for work performed.***

This is almost certainly an incorrect statement. It may well be -- in fact, it probably is -- a criminal offense in Michigan, as it is in almost every jurisdiction, to defraud someone. Fraud in an instance such as an SA contract would be to hire an SA >>with the preexisting intent<< not to pay them. But simple failure to pay would not be a criminal offense.

Think about it: If that were the case, no one could ever bankrupt without facing the prospect of going to jail, because bankruptcy is all about not paying debts. No one could ever withhold payment from another party because of shoddy work or failure to complete a job to specifications.

ItsMe may have a perfect track record for collection, but it isn't because Michigan law will imprison anyone who refuses to write him/her a check. It's because he vigorously pursues collection. And therein lies the real message that should be derived from his post: You just gotta keep after 'em.

Reply by BrendaTX on 6/18/05 1:02pm
Msg #45851

Re: Confessions of a $50 Signing Agent - Hugh

**This is almost certainly an incorrect statement. It may well be -- in fact, it probably is -- a criminal offense in Michigan, as it is in almost every jurisdiction, to defraud someone. Fraud in an instance such as an SA contract would be to hire an SA >>with the preexisting intent<< not to pay them. But simple failure to pay would not be a criminal offense.**

--------

I think you are wrong to say it is an incorrect statement, HuHu. I'll split the hair you were splitting with Michelle - ItsMe123 is a woman, BTW.

While I agree with your comments on bankruptcy, etc., based on what I have found when reading on this in our good ol' Texas criminal law with my uneducated eye, the same applies. If I recall correctly, intent to steal/defraud is not mentioned--but it's not important enough to me to look up at this time.

I think the flaw lies in the wording of law, not in Michelle's statements. But...that' just me splitting a hair with you on the already split hair you split with Michelle. And...I just wanted to give you a small ration of crap to improve your day.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/18/05 1:42pm
Msg #45859

Re: Confessions of a $50 Signing Agent - Hugh

Brenda barfs:

***I think you are wrong to say it is an incorrect statement, HuHu. I'll split the hair you were splitting with Michelle - ItsMe123 is a woman, BTW.

While I agree with your comments on bankruptcy, etc., based on what I have found when reading on this in our good ol' Texas criminal law with my uneducated eye, the same applies. If I recall correctly, intent to steal/defraud is not mentioned***

Scienter -- intent or wilfullness -- is an integral part of the elements necessary to make an act criminal. Intent may either be actual or implied through conduct, but it >>must<< be pesent. Intent, for example, generally would not be found if you suffered your first-ever stroke while behind the wheel, and as a consequence struck and killed someone. On the other hand, if you had had three previous strokes and had been advised by two physicians, your family and the next-door neighbors that you should not be driving, you have acted with reckless (though not wreckless) disregard and intent can be imputed to you.

It is ludicrous to contend, my dear BrenBren, that simply because someone has lost their job and cannot make the payment on the washing machine that they will be eating jailhouse bologna sandwiches. Get thee hence to thy meaningless pursuits and cease disturbing thy betters, milkwench.

Reply by BrendaTX on 6/18/05 1:50pm
Msg #45861

Re: Confessions of a $50 Signing Agent - Hugh

***Get thee hence to thy meaningless pursuits and cease disturbing thy betters, milkwench.***

HuHu,

I love it, as you have made my point. You have split a hair presented by ItsMe123, split again by me, and split yet another time by you.

Thank you. Now, pull out thy wedgie and get thee hence to thy meaningless pursuits and cease disturbing thy betters, serf.

Reply by Melody on 6/17/05 11:06pm
Msg #45747

How to last in a dwindling market

I think the only way a full time NSA is going to make it nowt that the refi boom is over is to have local title companies that use her/him for purchase work.

Reply by Forest Sisemore on 6/17/05 11:13pm
Msg #45751

can you elaborate a little

Please...

Reply by ItsMe123 on 6/17/05 11:29pm
Msg #45762

Elaborate on what?

Forest,
I really don't see what else there is. Get together a demand for payment. Do this by taking your invoice and in big bright bold letters put "this is a demand for payment. If payment is not received in 10 days a remedy from the court will be sought" Add to it the cost of mailing it. Send it certified mail, return receipt requested. Put with it with the law of your state concerning payment for work performed. This can be found on the offical site for your states government. Also include the form one fills out for small claims in your county---have it filled out, ready to go---put a sticky note on it that you will file a copy of the form on the eleventh day. This lets them know you are informed and you will follow through. You are not like the notaries that just call and get mad---you act.

Reply by Forest Sisemore on 6/17/05 11:38pm
Msg #45763

Re: Elaborate on what?

Thank you! You already have. Very good work/posts by the way...

Reply by Ernest_CT on 6/17/05 11:39pm
Msg #45764

Thank you!

I guess it's me to the library on Monday. Then to the Small Claims Court. Then to the Post Office.

Reply by Melody on 6/18/05 1:09am
Msg #45779

Re: can you elaborate a little

You will have to find title companies in your coverage area that will use your services for mobile closing of home purchases. Those docs include sales docs and loan docs for the borrowers.

You pick up the docs from the title company, get them all signed, and drop them off back to the TC office.

Refinances are way, way down and falling. Purchases are up. That's why I think purchase work is the only future for NSAs.

Reply by Barry/FL on 6/18/05 2:29am
Msg #45799

Please read some of the remarks, responses, criticisms, and deceptions suggested on this board. Good SS monitor the board, something like a surveillence camera, without responding. Too much of the negative is published, and the SA's are looking less professional.

I too have noticed fees going down. Thank G-d my accounts are still in full tact. When one performs one's job above and beyond the call of duty, one tends to be paid well. One of the many reasons fees are going down is due to 'notary errors," which, because of the sudden growth in the SA business, are on the rise.

Title companies are tired of eating the cost of having to pay two diffeent notary fees, and notaries who refuse to fix their own errors or even admit they made errors, that the amount being paid to us is subsiding. I still collect the high fees from my accounts ($100.00-$150.00 depending on the circumstances and $225.00 for 1st and 2nds together). My accounts pay these fees because they know the signings will be handled correctly and efficiently and that I offer, in writing, to make corrections at my expense if the signing must be redone due to notary error. To date, no one has made a claim on my warranty.

Just think how fees might increase if every notary processed loans with 100% document accuracy and the written warranty.

At the present rate of decline of properly executed documents, lenders and title companies may go back to requiring attorney only closings. There are reasons why six of the states require that only attorneys can process mortgage closings.

The more professionally we behave, the better our chances are of increasing the fees.

Reply by Forest Sisemore on 6/18/05 2:37am
Msg #45800

"Just think how fees might increase if every notary processed loans with 100% document accuracy and the written warranty.

At the present rate of decline of properly executed documents, lenders and title companies may go back to requiring attorney only closings. There are reasons why six of the states require that only attorneys can process mortgage closings.

The more professionally we behave, the better our chances are of increasing the fees."

Thankx Barry & Ditto...

Reply by Roger/OH on 6/18/05 12:06pm
Msg #45840

NOT seeing a refi decline...

Gotta disagree with Mel on this one; I don't think the opportunity for steady work is going away. Interest rates have been decreasing recently and I see a lot of folks with ARMs now doing fixed rates, and also no letup on HELOCs for debt consolidation. My workload has been consistently busy.

Reply by Ernest_CT on 6/18/05 5:21pm
Msg #45897

Hear, hear! Attorney-only closings may be coming.

As has been discussed in other threads, one of the reasons for the decrease in NSA fees is the overall decrease in NSA quality.

Today I told a signing service that I would do the faxbacks on the first two signings I did for them. After that, they've seen the quality of my work and either pay me extra for the faxbacks or accept my guarantee.

Reply by Charles A Peavey on 6/18/05 4:42pm
Msg #45887

I suspect that the problem is in your first sentence. Since there are many businesses trying to grind out more and more notaries and especially signing notaries there is going to be downward pressure on the pricing. since there are more and more notaries out in the field it will be more difficult to get regular worh and there are always those who will cut their prices to get the work until there is no more profit left.

Most professions start professional organizations (not like NNA or many others who primarily earn incomes off of mew notaries) which require a minimum standard of proficiency or experience. When the organizations reach sufficient size they then bug their legislators until they pass legislation to tighten up the requirements.

So is there anyone out there ready to start a real professional organization.

Reply by BrendaTX on 6/18/05 6:19pm
Msg #45906

Re: Confessions of a $50 Signing Agent- Charles

Check your email, Charles.